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Post by lain on Dec 22, 2014 0:52:28 GMT -5
So this is driving me crazy, I can't start my ride! I noticed last week I was spewing out too much oil, there was smoke coming from my exhaust and my coat still smells like burnt oil. I tore down the engine and replaced a piston ring (the second compression ring gap was too large). I put it all back together and ignored my usual last step of checking the valve tappet gaps, and after a couple days I noticed it was having real issues staying alive, I opened it up and saw the intake valve tappet was not at the right gap, so I decided to regap both of them, intake .004 and exhaust .005 which is what I had used when I first installed the BBK.
Since I regapped the valves I have not been able to start at all, not even get a single fire out of it. I can't be certain what the issue is but it started fine before I regapped the valves, sometimes hard but it always started up. I have had all sorts of starting issues in the past but this is just driving me crazy! I ended up stripping the threads off the kickstarter lever and gear trying to kickstart it in the cold. My electric starter motor has some serious issues, every second or third attempt to turn the starter motor it will just make a click noise, I have to open up the cvt case and I turn the teeth of the starter motor by rotating the bendix clockwise, usually rotating it clockwise about 2 small turns will let it turn again but only once or twice until I have to do it again so you can imagine how tedious and aggravating this becomes when trying to diagnose a starting issue.
I have drained the battery 3 times now since I have started trying to diagnose the issue. When I try to start it it rotates the engine but does not fire. I thought it was an electrical issue but I am not entirely sure at this point. I have tried multiple different spark plugs, I bought a freakin 10 pack so I could be damned sure. I have tried 3 different ignition coils, 2 stock, 1 orange racing coil. I do not have a spare CDI or else I'd have tried that already.
There does seem to be fuel and air flowing, I drained the carb and it filled back up with gas when I was cranking the motor. It has always been picky about the fuel and air mixture at start though since the BBK was installed, it will not take any extra fuel than the idle fuel to start, like if I try to use the throttle the engine will just stop cranking and the starter motor will sound like its being held back from pushing the engine forward, my guess is the compression is too high to add extra fuel, but I am using a thick head gasket to relieve some of the compression. Could it be possible that the cold makes it even harder and might need extra fuel but can't take it because of the compression? However that wouldn't make sense to me since it was working fine in below freezing temps.
On a completely full charge it feels like it gets a spark but it may be off in timing, however does not really seem like it is doing anything with the spark. Sometimes I will hear the familiar pop of the spark igniting some fuel and air and it will shake the scoot, but most of the time it just rotates the engine without any pop from the spark. I really feel it is electrical but I just don't have the money right now for anymore spare parts to switch out with. I once had a very similar issue in the past that turned out to be a bad cdi. I just don't understand how a few hours before I regapped the valves I was starting fine then after I regapped them all of a sudden I have a starting issue that seems electrical... I feel like this may be another fried cdi issue but I can't figure out a way to test it without a new cdi, or a known working used cdi, but I just don't have the money. Yes I know they are like $10 on ebay, I don't have $10 sadly and this does not seem like something I can just MacGuyver something to fix or test it unless anyone else has ideas?
Video tomorrow, too aggravated and too late right now (almost 1am at time of post)
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Post by dmartin95 on Dec 22, 2014 1:52:49 GMT -5
So this is driving me crazy, I can't start my ride! I noticed last week I was spewing out too much oil, there was smoke coming from my exhaust and my coat still smells like burnt oil. I tore down the engine and replaced a piston ring (the second compression ring gap was too large). I put it all back together and ignored my usual last step of checking the valve tappet gaps, and after a couple days I noticed it was having real issues staying alive, I opened it up and saw the intake valve tappet was not at the right gap, so I decided to regap both of them, intake .004 and exhaust .005 which is what I had used when I first installed the BBK. Since I regapped the valves I have not been able to start at all, not even get a single fire out of it. I can't be certain what the issue is but it started fine before I regapped the valves, sometimes hard but it always started up. I have had all sorts of starting issues in the past but this is just driving me crazy! I ended up stripping the threads off the kickstarter lever and gear trying to kickstart it in the cold. My electric starter motor has some serious issues, every second or third attempt to turn the starter motor it will just make a click noise, I have to open up the cvt case and I turn the teeth of the starter motor by rotating the bendix clockwise, usually rotating it clockwise about 2 small turns will let it turn again but only once or twice until I have to do it again so you can imagine how tedious and aggravating this becomes when trying to diagnose a starting issue. I have drained the battery 3 times now since I have started trying to diagnose the issue. When I try to start it it rotates the engine but does not fire. I thought it was an electrical issue but I am not entirely sure at this point. I have tried multiple different spark plugs, I bought a freakin 10 pack so I could be damned sure. I have tried 3 different ignition coils, 2 stock, 1 orange racing coil. I do not have a spare CDI or else I'd have tried that already. There does seem to be fuel and air flowing, I drained the carb and it filled back up with gas when I was cranking the motor. It has always been picky about the fuel and air mixture at start though since the BBK was installed, it will not take any extra fuel than the idle fuel to start, like if I try to use the throttle the engine will just stop cranking and the starter motor will sound like its being held back from pushing the engine forward, my guess is the compression is too high to add extra fuel, but I am using a thick head gasket to relieve some of the compression. Could it be possible that the cold makes it even harder and might need extra fuel but can't take it because of the compression? However that wouldn't make sense to me since it was working fine in below freezing temps. On a completely full charge it feels like it gets a spark but it may be off in timing, however does not really seem like it is doing anything with the spark. Sometimes I will hear the familiar pop of the spark igniting some fuel and air and it will shake the scoot, but most of the time it just rotates the engine without any pop from the spark. I really feel it is electrical but I just don't have the money right now for anymore spare parts to switch out with. I once had a very similar issue in the past that turned out to be a bad cdi. I just don't understand how a few hours before I regapped the valves I was starting fine then after I regapped them all of a sudden I have a starting issue that seems electrical... I feel like this may be another fried cdi issue but I can't figure out a way to test it without a new cdi, or a known working used cdi, but I just don't have the money. Yes I know they are like $10 on ebay, I don't have $10 sadly and this does not seem like something I can just MacGuyver something to fix or test it unless anyone else has ideas? Video tomorrow, too aggravated and too late right now (almost 1am at time of post) Do you have an AC or DC CDI? If it's AC, PM me your address. |
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Post by lain on Dec 22, 2014 2:12:21 GMT -5
Yeah it is an AC fired CDI. I have the "racing" CDi, slightly smaller in size and colored bright orange. I think it is supposed to have a better timing curve or something, I have only had it for about a couple months.
My last CDI lasted about 6 months give or take and I had a delivery job I used my scoot for and I did some travelling so I definitely got a ton of miles out of that old cdi, but this orange cdi I have only been using my scoot to get around town once a day or so, a lot less riding.
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Post by dmartin95 on Dec 22, 2014 3:11:29 GMT -5
Got ya covered!
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Post by rockynv on Dec 22, 2014 4:48:24 GMT -5
The ignition pickup coil as it starts to fail will also give you similar issues. Scrappy Dog usually has them as a separate item for less than $10.
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Post by lain on Dec 22, 2014 5:08:35 GMT -5
The ignition pickup coil as it starts to fail will also give you similar issues. Scrappy Dog usually has them as a separate item for less than $10. Seems like something worth looking into. I have my ignition pickup coil wired through my alarm system so I will try rewiring it and checking on the wires. How do they normally go bad? Wires become bad or the pickup falls apart? Do the wires have to be a certain gauge for it to work properly? I'm not sure how they work but it looks like a lead that makes contact with a nipple on the flywheel to maybe complete a circuit in order to tell the cdi when the engine has reached a certain position in order to trigger the fires or something. I did notice that whenever I was sitting on a hill it would cut out or if I stopped abruptly it would also cut off and only continuing to rev it would keep it alive. Those were the issues I was having when I decided to regap the valves. |
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Post by tvnacman on Dec 22, 2014 8:38:37 GMT -5
how long did the bike sit while you were rebuilding the top end/BBK ?
John
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 22, 2014 10:39:01 GMT -5
1. Go to your local auto parts store and get a spray can of starting fluid (ether). Spray a **SMALL** amount into the carb intake and crank. If it starts (even for a moment) check for fuel flow. Even though there is some fuel in the carb bowl, you may have a vac. leak, or the pump is crapping out, or the carb is in need of cleaning, etc.
2. If that does not work them yet, probably electrical (unless you messed up on the gap - if it were me I'd check again since I have in the past .... well, nevermind.
3. Try plugging a spark plug into the boot/wire and leaning it against the aluminum engine case - crank in a dark place and see if you can see any spark at all. Still might not be getting a good spark under high compression, but if there is no spark in open air there will for sure not be one under actual conditions.
4. Check engine ground. Don't know how big your BBK is, but sounds like the starter is either weak or not working well.
5. You are right about the timing pickup --- sensor looks for a break in magnetic field caused by the metal slug attached to the side of the flywheel. When the slug comes around and passed the sensor the field is broken and a signal sent to the CDI.
6. Check AGAIN the timing of the valves - with the flywheel turned so the "T" is at the pointer the cam should show THREE holes, with the big one at the top and the other small ones at the level of the top of the head.
7. Any chance you got some water in the gas?
Some thoughts; hope it helps & does not just confuse.
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Post by rockynv on Dec 22, 2014 12:36:43 GMT -5
The ignition pickup coil as it starts to fail will also give you similar issues. Scrappy Dog usually has them as a separate item for less than $10. Seems like something worth looking into. I have my ignition pickup coil wired through my alarm system so I will try rewiring it and checking on the wires. How do they normally go bad? Wires become bad or the pickup falls apart? Do the wires have to be a certain gauge for it to work properly? I'm not sure how they work but it looks like a lead that makes contact with a nipple on the flywheel to maybe complete a circuit in order to tell the cdi when the engine has reached a certain position in order to trigger the fires or something. I did notice that whenever I was sitting on a hill it would cut out or if I stopped abruptly it would also cut off and only continuing to rev it would keep it alive. Those were the issues I was having when I decided to regap the valves. They crack or become porous so that water gets in or the coils start to break up. Will act like fuel starvation until they fail completely. |
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Post by lain on Dec 22, 2014 13:54:39 GMT -5
Seems like something worth looking into. I have my ignition pickup coil wired through my alarm system so I will try rewiring it and checking on the wires. How do they normally go bad? Wires become bad or the pickup falls apart? Do the wires have to be a certain gauge for it to work properly? I'm not sure how they work but it looks like a lead that makes contact with a nipple on the flywheel to maybe complete a circuit in order to tell the cdi when the engine has reached a certain position in order to trigger the fires or something. I did notice that whenever I was sitting on a hill it would cut out or if I stopped abruptly it would also cut off and only continuing to rev it would keep it alive. Those were the issues I was having when I decided to regap the valves. They crack or become porous so that water gets in or the coils start to break up. Will act like fuel starvation until they fail completely. Would I be able to rig a temporary pickup using my old pickup from my cvt that told the cdi the revs the clutch does? Are they the same device? |
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Post by alleyoop on Dec 22, 2014 14:57:40 GMT -5
Just a thought since it will not start after you re-gapped the valves, CHECK the ground wire from the MOTOR to the FRAME, usually the GROUND wire is attached to one of the VALVE cover bolts. If you forgot to attach the ground wire NO SPARK.
But your trying to diagnose this all the wrong way, Check the common things first.
1. GAS being sucked into the motor
2. SPARK, take the spark plug out or use a spare and hold it against the VALVE cover and crank it.
3. Compression, if no gauge use the finger trick, take the plug out and stick your finger in the hole and HOLD the throttle wide open and crank it, IF it LIFTS your finger off the hole it has enough compression for the motor to run, if you just feel a little pressure then RECHECK your valves, if good at TDC then pour a tablespoon of oil down the plug hole and re-check the compression if this this it LIFTS your finger off then it is your rings.
Alleyoop
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Post by lain on Dec 22, 2014 18:53:07 GMT -5
Still not starting, some progress has been made, not enough progress though I need to get this fixed tomorrow hopefully or wednesday at the latest. I have a ton of xmas plans for xmas that rely on me being able to get around fast.
So I got it running, then it wouldn't start again. Here is a video of me trying to start it:
Then after that video I tried a few more times and tilted it back and it started popping then started, this video is of it running:
But then I went for a test ride, went to the other side of town to a friends house and when I went to leave it wouldn't pop anymore, or when it did pop it wouldn't keep popping it would like pop once then continue pushing with no pop.
While I WAS riding it seemed to be running smooth, didn't have any issues with it dying on hills or on deceleration. No backfiring, though when I first started it up it was spewing out very thick white smoke out of the exhaust for about a half of a minute then was clear but still smells like burning oil. Haven't bothered to check the plug but I assume it is wet and oil fouled as the gaps for the rings on the piston are slightly off but close enough to ride on without backfiring but it seems still lets oil in and fouls up things. This could be another factor as to why it won't start but I am trying to make due for now till after the holiday season, but I really need my ride FOR the holiday season to get me around.
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Post by alleyoop on Dec 22, 2014 21:14:52 GMT -5
Well I do see that in the 1st video NO GREEN GROUND wire on the motor then on the 2nd Video Green wire all of a sudden appears and it is running.  You have to be truthful and tell what got it running SO it may help others when they forget to do something that causes motor not to start and run. Forgetting things to do happens to the best of us, many times one is to in a hurry and forget simple things. Alleyoop |
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Post by lain on Dec 22, 2014 21:22:22 GMT -5
Well I do see that in the 1st video NO GREEN GROUND wire on the motor then on the 2nd Video Green wire all of a sudden appears and it is running. You have to be truthful and tell what got it running SO it may help others when they forget to do something that causes motor not to start and run. Forgetting things to do happens to the best of us, many times one is to in a hurry and forget simple things. Alleyoop Green ground wire? I have a Black ground wire attached to the top left bolt on the valve cover. The blue wire you see floating around, which is what I think you mean because I do not have any green wires, is the wire for a usb car charger I rigged but have not had connected to the battery or frame because I have not needed it since I stopped doing food delivery on my scoot. The only thing I did different, was I tilted the scoot back towards the back wheel while it was on the stand and kept hitting the electric starter button until it started popping and when I let go it stayed on. I am starting to think a wire must be loose somewhere... but not sure where? I have checked the ground wire, it has been secure the entire time, not coming loose. The wires are secure on the battery. The wires on the solenoid are good, the wires on the starter motor are good, I have not rewired anything yet but I think that may be my next step. Just rewire everything I think might look funny. By the way, you may notice in the videos there are disconnected things like my orange ignition coil, I have my stock black ignition coil behind it I switch them around without taking them out for testing. Same thing sorta with the usb charger, however that is more I just don't want to take it out then realize I need it one day I get stuck on the road with an almost dead phone. |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 22, 2014 21:35:25 GMT -5
Hey pain this just sorta happened to me . if you read one of my recent past in the fuel line thread . I was having a hard time starting and keeping my scoot running at warm up. I would get white smoke as the scoot would finally start due to excess fuel build up burning off. I noticed a leaking vacuum hose and no more probs. The popping could be a lean condition caused by extra air being sucked in . this will cause hard starts and will also cause the scoot to run better as the rpms rise due to the vacuum getting stronger.
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
