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Post by rockynv on Aug 23, 2017 0:43:33 GMT -5
I don't doubt some of the problems are self inflicted but many issues are repetitive and not due to owner abuse. You don't have to peruse Modern Vespa long to see how devoted the owners are. They accept the issues to be part of the continuum. Still they don't shy away from documenting some of the engineering and electrical let downs. I appreciate their honesty. Still have no idea where you are coming from with this stuff. I checked Modern Vespa and there are only issues with a guy causing ABS faults by installing two very different sized tires on the bike that is so far out of spec that not even the newest ABS Flash can overcome it, some stalling on a bike that has not had a valve check in over 6 years and is over 10 years old, a Yamaha rider with a real problem, someone with a left brake switch problem which impacts a myriad of other brands and similar checking the most recent dozen or so threads. Yes some 25 or 50 year old bikes have known issues however they are still operational after a quarter to half a century. I won't bother going back through months of threads there looking for the few that might be real problems with a new bike. Those in my experience just do not happen at that high a rate and when they do Piaggio will take care of it for you if you allow them. The Piaggio Service Station Manual is less than $10 and puts it very plainly. "A failure of ... is more likely to be due to the connections rather than the components." and leads you through what fuses and connectors to check for pulled wires, blown fuses and the occasional switch that may need attention. Most can be dealt with if you go by the book without any new parts with the exception of replacing a fuse. One of the biggest issues I see aside from lack of SOP maintenance catching up with them after several years is with people who mod their bikes with add-ons and pull a wire, cause a short, etc that automatically start changing voltage regulators and other parts known to be highly reliable instead of really investigating what they themselves had done to shoot themselves in the foot. Those that left the ignition switch on and shut the bike off with the kill switch running the battery down and then burnt out their starter trying to get it to crank on the now weak battery are also a common one. Some will even tinker with the bikes and break things during the warranty period and not man up to it or have a simple issue covered under the warranty but try to cobble it themselves instead of letting Piaggio do it right under the warranty and then complain about the reliability of the bikes. People having issues with used bikes that were messed up by the previous owners actions or problematic due to being recovered thefts are really out of scope. Again if you follow the simple inexpensive, easy to follow maintenance schedule in the owners manual and don't do the things they specifically tell you not to do such as spray water up underneath the fairings into the wiring harness and controls you will see very good long term reliability. There is no magic formula aside from reading and doing as the owners manual instructs. Most required services are fairly cheap when you consider that they will need to be done every year or so and not monthly like on some other bikes. If there is a problem, a new Piaggio for the most part has a 100% 2 year parts and labor warranty plus service bulletin services are taken care of free of charge and not limited to the warranty period or original owner.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 22, 2017 4:06:11 GMT -5
One of the fellas that works for me brought in a pair of welding goggles to look at it. NASA warned that only a #14 arc welders lens would be sufficient (those are rated for a 550 amp arc) and that the lenses on welding goggles would not. Too many folks showed up at work yesterday with the bargain gas welding goggles from Harbor Freight thinking they would be protected. Security monitored the revelers and warned those with the gas welding goggles to turn away and watch the live video display being projected in the cafeteria instead.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 18, 2017 3:48:36 GMT -5
Thank you for proving my point. What you described above is NASA resources an Aprilia requires just to stay on the road for a brief Sunday ride. It is the Hallmark of Italian failures over the decades. Massive fiddling just to be used. Perfect example. Ducati. For years the darling of the motoring press but scourge of the general public. Constant electric and mechanical failures from their exotic use of tech and materials. Then Volkswagen bought them, introduced common sense and real quality control. Now Ducati sales are rocketing and the bikes are more durable. You may enjoy spending as much time maintaining as riding your Aprilia but at the end of the day a Honda Forza is a better choice for a daily driver, heck maybe even a Citicom 300i. It's why the Japanese rule as everyday bikes. What are you smoking fella. Changing the oil every 6,250 miles and belt every 12,500 and having a company that though a bit hard nosed at times puts resources out to back you up is not high maintenance. For most this means annually changing your oil and every few years changing the drive belt. Flushing coolant and brake fluid every 2 years is SOP regardless of brand so no high maintenance there either. You previously complained there were inaccessible and out of touch not providing easy to use and obtain resources and now your complaining because they are too accessible? Aprilia is considered like Honda for reliability. You need to start being more consistent and reasonable. Piaggio does not own Ducati and again I spend most of my time riding not maintaining. I only had one breakdown in 30,000 miles and it was due to experimenting with Dr Pulley sliders which damaged the oil sump gasket and belt not due to any issue with Piaggio engineering. I ride rain or shine even being caught out in Tropical Storms and have not had any electrical switch failures either. I am still using the original clutch and variator too. Total maintenance since 2010 is 5 oil changes and 3 belts plus 3 sets of tires not counting the Dr Pulley experiment however I knew there was going to be risk deviating from Piaggio OEM components when I agreed to try the Dr Pulley Sliders. When on vacation I will go touring on the Interstate and put up to triple the miles they limit you to on the Scooter Cannonball with no issues. You keep bringing up to the Scooter Cannonball and highlighting how a 150 to 169 cc bike won it however that is with good reason since the race puts you at a disadvantage if you have over a 200cc bike since you will be going too fast and not following the average pace set for the 150cc bikes which the race is designed to cater too. They tell you up front that having over 200 cc will reduce your chance of winning the Scooter Cannonball and be a detriment yet in 2014 despite using Dr Pulley Sliders and having the same oil seal issue and belt failure that I had from experimenting with Dr Pulley they had a rather high mileage 2008 Sport City 250 though having to stop for repairs because of Dr Pulley issues not Piaggio flaws, come in 3rd and probably would have won if the rider had not been experimenting with the sliders during the race.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 16, 2017 4:41:15 GMT -5
I read too and there are some common themes on the troublesome Vespa. It was stored outside, was not used for several years and stored full of gasoline, never changed the oil, never flushed the coolant, heavily modded and the modifications failed.
Changing the oil and filter every 3,500 to 6,250 miles, flushing the brakes and coolant every 2 years and replacing the belt every 12,500 is not what one would consider heavy expensive maintenance.
Yes I have helped people who have ruined all brands of bikes or bought used ones that were ridden hard and put away wet which was not the fault of the bike and a few times I have found some that were truly defective however those defectives were not concentrated on the Piaggio bikes.
On the Cannon Ball run its more the rider than about the bike. And yes in that competition a smaller newer bike in the hands of the original owner that goes farther on a tank of gas can give a rider an advantage over a 5, 10 or 20 year old larger used bike regardless of the brand.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 16, 2017 0:42:35 GMT -5
Boy are you off track. Aprilia provided the computers and training in the USA with either local training or at their US based training center along with video refresher training via the Dealer Only Site so you did not have to travel to Noale or Scorze Italy for training. You did not only get training on the Mana but all the scooters and sport bikes however most US Dealerships just wanted to sell the really high end bikes and had no interest in training. Aprilia even sent them the tools and computers to support the bikes they sold plus the computers worked for any Piaggio family product that have the Navigator or PADs interface be it an Aprilia, MotoGuzzi, Piaggio, Vespa, etc. The also provide a toll free dealer support line to get real time assistance from a US Based Piaggio Engineer to help guide you through a repair if you needed help. The Piaggio Engineer I spoke with lamented that most dealer mechanics would get into trouble yet would not call them for assistance and they would not find out until the customer called them directly after getting tired of the dealer or trying to fix what the dealer did wrong themselves. Yes Aprilia/Piaggio can be a hard case but they do have US Based training and provide the tools to maintain the bikes you sell and actually make the tools a mandatory part of the package sending them to you automatically based on what bikes you stock.
The Burgman 650 with the computer controlled CVT also requires calibration and costs a lot of money for a belt change. The belt life on the Burgman 650 should average about 50,000 miles due to the lower performance of the bike however there are known problems with the design that can and do cause early failures due to several pain points in the design which one hopes they don't have to deal with however they are there.
1) Belt Breakage - belt will snap either as a result of bearing failure or simply at the end of its service life 2) Primary Shaft Adapter 3) Pulley Position Sensor 4) Seized Pulley Bearings 5) Pulley Revolution Sensor Failure 6) Primary Pulley Stopper Bolt
Nothings perfect that's for sure however the Mana has proven itself even touring in such harsh places as the Australian Back Country.
Here is a Mana on a track where the owner is testing out his bike and learning the track against more seasoned riders on conventional sport bikes. He actually does not do very badly for and older gent about to go in for some major surgery.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 15, 2017 22:35:43 GMT -5
Leo - If a guy like this who works for a rural gas company can do it then anyone can:
The concept is really not that different from the vapor generators used in gasoline powered stoves and lamps such as your Coleman 425 or 413 stoves from over the past century or so.
Here is a multi-fuel version of the old Petromax vapor lamp which has been redesigned to burn anything from kerosene, gasoline, diesel, citronella, used crankcase oil, jet fuel to olive oil. These guys are local to me and I have verified that this thing can burn just about any fuel with the only real gotcha is that if its too thick of an oil base such as goopy black old crankcase oil you need to mix it with a 50/50 blend of something thinner that will cut it and if its got a lot of solids in it obviously put it through a filter. Using of a capfull of a good carb cleaner such as the Berryman product that you will see me recommending every 10th tank of fuel is recommended.
Some of the Esoteric will cry foul however if these simple homey folk can do it then it can't be that impossible.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 15, 2017 22:13:29 GMT -5
If Euro4 is pushing them out then that impacts 3 continents Europe, Asia and Africa unless some countries make an exception for the 50cc engine.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 13, 2017 22:35:08 GMT -5
They have achieved the same quality with Indian, even the air cooled Chief. Victory just didn't have the same "Name" as Indian. Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, a Polaris is a Polaris no matter what the badge. And as far as quality, panache is what sells sometimes. A Vespa isn't half the scooter an SMax is no matter what the size, 155 or 300. Yet when people say scooter they mean Vespa. Hype sometimes outweighs quality. It's kept Harley on top for 115 years. That's a personal opinion on the Vespa however when I was at the local multibrand dealer with the new Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Aprilia, Vespa, Piaggio and Eaton bikes all side by side in a row the Yamaha were not a clear winners nor were they twice the bike although they are nice bikes. The only twice I saw on the showroom floor looking at all those brands together at the same time was that you got almost twice the CC on the new Aprilia and some Piaggio models for the same price as the new Yamaha and Honda. Yes there are some TestaDura here who don't want to understand that you have to shop around and such but the deals are out there. I went shopping without any brand loyalty or bike bigotry ingrained and just shopped for best value and stumbled in during the Spring Factory Incentive Sale which if I had checked Piaggio's Web Site I would have known about in advance. No need to post MSRP lists as when you walk into a dealership those suggested prices are not carved in stone. Even a Lance or Sym for example has over a 30% margin on it ($800 to $900 markup) that can be reduced by the dealer if they want to go for profit on high volume sales. I almost signed on a Honda CTXN 700 DCT during their Garage Sale Event last year since the loss leader was on sale new for $4,999 however the DCT then had hunting and pecking issues that still existed and was not as smooth as I would have preferred plus it had that brake pedal way up front that I really do not like along with a very low seating position which after a while on the test ride made it hard on my bad left knee supporting the bike. If there were only two of the three issues allowing me to more constantly use my right leg to balance the bike I probably would have penned my name on the bottom line. Like I said I am not a brand bigot and will consider anything that is on sale for a reasonable price and meets my requirements. On Yamaha quality overall well I have helped enough people over the years with Yamaha Scooters and Motorcycles with a variety of issues that sometimes even makes the Chinese stuff from 2007 to 2009 look great and yes there were many issues that they caused themselves. Remember the Yamaha starters that would strip out every few thousand miles due to poor design, fairly recent Yamaha and Star models with factory exhausts that blocked oil filters from being changed without removal of the header pipes and requiring the replacement of frightfully expensive seals, etc, etc to call out just a few. On the old Yamaha Scooters its also quite a bit harder to find parts than on the old Piaggio unless its a Yamaha that the Chinese have cloned and kept the parts available for. None are perfect as they are contrivances of men. People call scooters Vespa generically in Italy and many other parts of the world even when its a Chinese bike just like people here call most motor homes Winnebago's because they were the first with market presence. Its sad though that some people can still mess up a 100,000 mile plus capable Piaggio powered bike and trash it at relatively low mileage. No need to post about the few that have messed up their bikes or bought one off Craigs List that somebody else already messed up and posted multiple times about it blaming everyone else on the planet for what they likely caused themselves or were cheated on by the previous owners selling the bikes to distance themselves from the problems they caused.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 13, 2017 21:23:59 GMT -5
China has to as they are addressing the worst pollution crisis of just about any country in the world and are developing vehicles for the same countries in Europe, Asia and Africa who follow Euro Air Regulations. They may become the leaders in low pollution vehicles due to the crisis air quality conditions that they are facing. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.
Maybe the Chinese will perfect a viable heat vaporizer carb that can economically change the game and rescue the lower cc bikes. With a heat vaporizer carb an engine becomes multi-fuel and can burn just about anything including diluted used crankcase oil (filtered first of course) at 4 times the efficiency of a carb or even current fuel injected engines and run cleaner like natural gas fired engines.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 13, 2017 11:59:54 GMT -5
Indian/Polaris dumped Victory in the face of slipping sales and the cost to develop new engines for two brands. Indian sales exceeded Victory even though Victory was around for nineteen years to only six years under Polaris ownership. Plus it's easier to sell hype than engineering to Cruiser owners. "America's Oldest Motorcycle Company" my butt. This isn't new sadly. Seventies Japanese bikes were replaced rather than fixed. Repairing was expensive in a shop in comparison to MSRP. Never mind any pride of ownership or loyalty to your machine. That does not change the fact that they had achieved quality matching the Big4 which Harley was and is not anywhere close to doing and truth be told they were not doing that badly overseas until new Euro pollution regulations came out that blocked sale of most Victory product to the majority of the World without a radical redesign which was the final death stroke. The stiffer Euro standard caused many bike makers to drop all their VTwin Air Cooled bikes from the Euro Market (Europe, Africa and Asia) not just Victory/Polaris.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 13, 2017 11:31:58 GMT -5
It stayed as the SR850 Scooter but not the Mana. On the Mana one of the big issues was that many dealers did not understand it nor spend the time to send a tech for the factory training on calibrating it. It has 7 gearshift ranges, a paddle shift and a foot shift plus Normal, Rain, Sport and Touring Automatic modes. Belt life is 25,000 miles and like I mentioned previously those that owned and rode both the Honda DCT and the Mana usually ended up keeping the Mana. Some feel they outgrow the Mana however that is mostly due to pressure from Sport Bike fanatics who feel that the 135 or so mph Mana just isn't fast enough. Many with the GT model dress it with the panniers and top case and use it as a 2 up touring bike despite its relatively small fuel tank.
Aprilia unfortunately has to answer to Piaggio and does not call the shots. If Piaggio felt the Mana competed too strongly against their MotoGuzzi touring bikes then out it goes. The 125 to 500 cc Scooters from Aprilia always appeared to give higher performance than the Piaggio and Vespa models with the same size engines so guess what Piaggio no longer allows Aprilia to make scooters with the same engines as Piaggio and Vespa. So the 850 which is an Aprilia engine goes into an Aprilia SuperScooter that does not compete with any other Piaggio product along with sold to John Deer and then they allow them to use a Chinese built 50cc in a Motard Scooter.
Piaggio currently owns, Aprilia, Derby, Guilera, MotoGuzzi and Vespa. Many feel they have grossly mishandled Aprilia and placed too many restrictions on their products.
Their killing off Sport City for instance also smashed the French Cargo Bike that was based on it which delivered a more Sport Bike type ride that had a modified front fairing and seat with a cavernous trunk where the footwell was that could carry a weeks worth of groceries or enough luggage for two for a few weeks vacation with everything locked up inside the bike. Piaggio wanted the MultiStrada like Caponard or the MotoGuzzi filling that niche and killed multiple birds with one stone on that one. Killed competition against the Beverly 250 and an alternate to the BV350, Vespa 300 competitor and got rid of a light touring bike that could have cut into Caponard and MotoGuzzi sales.
How much is from Piaggio Corporate or just mirrors the preferences of Piaggio USA is anyones guess.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 12, 2017 21:14:47 GMT -5
Dollar - They were assembled by some amazing craftsmen and yes it was an amazing accomplishment for the time but some involved were not as good team players as the rest. Biggest hurdle we faced was lack of conformity between the different orbiters so no really common parts existed between them aside from some standard electrical parts and the more basic hardware items along with a smattering of other items. It was not like having three Dodge Darts and being able to swap a fender, door or bracket from one to another. Every one required a separate set of thousands of hand made drawings to maintain with some of them hanger wall sized and it was becoming a monumental task to deal with over time. The only major area that was fully vetted out in a 3D CAD system toward the end that we were aware of was the cargo bay and robotic deployment arm.
I did not simply read an internet blurb or article about it or come up with this by conjecture but I am speaking as one who was there on the contracting team tasked with a financially viable means to convert all these various drawings that were to different scales and on a variety of media into a common computer based library. Nothing available at the time could handle it and meet the budget constraints due to the large manual effort that would have been involved. There was also the major hurdle of getting every agency to agree on whether to use Cadia, MicroStation or Autocad with each camp deeply entrenched. I felt that since so much work on the cargo bay and deployment systems had already been done in MicroStation which is a pretty large section of the structure that building off of that would have been the most logical. However it was all cancelled.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 12, 2017 15:09:15 GMT -5
Aprilia still makes the 850 but in a scooter that's not available in the US which is a shame to a degree since the ABS model beats the BMW by a large margin. You can still get the 850 Aprilia in the US as a John Deer Gator though and its proven itself to be quite tough.
Roughness in the pegs means the potentiometer on the computer driven CVT needed to be re-calibrated and the CVT servo re-lubed as some were accidentally sent out dry due to a misprint in the factory manual however that was corrected with a tablespoon of grease and a few minutes running the calibration routine with the Navigator Computer at the Dealer.
The Honda does win though on price point and fuel economy. At 2/3 the cost of the Aprilia and near to 250cc fuel economy the Honda is a bargain though some find in city driving the Honda sometimes hunts for the right gear and shifts up or down way too soon and often. Over the long haul most who I know that own both the Mana and the Honda DCT sell the Honda and stay with the Mana. The riding pegs on the Honda NC700 DCT tend to get annoying after a while in city riding since at stops they are rubbing against the back of your calves and tend to bruise you if you don't get your foot off the ground the instant you start moving.
The CTX DCT naked or dressed does not hit you with the riding pegs however some find the rear brake pedal way up front on the crash bars as a toe brake takes a little getting used to especially in stop and go city driving. I dislike the lower riding position of the CTX and prefer the higher seat on the Mana or NC700 with the sport bikes seating height about the same as on a Sport City, Beverly or Scarabeo.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 12, 2017 14:24:29 GMT -5
Leo - I truly believe people like that did in part build the Space Shuttle. I worked on the team trying to rescue it from what they had done but we couldn't because of the great cost involved in just unitizing the design in a CAD environment which was a very sad thing for all involved. Some may also cry bunk on that but I worked with the Joint Chiefs, NASA, British Aerospace and a number of other agencies on that one and there just was not enough money allocated to pull it off. I was there in the thick of it so I know what we discussed in our conference rooms and how many different ways we tried to fix things but alas we were told to stand down and let it pass. There are some folks no matter how brilliant others think they are or they think themselves would have left me no choice but to hand them a pink slip for misconduct if they worked for me.
Now before we allow these folks to get us to vent too far and get ourselves banned maybe we should step away for a few and chill doing something we enjoy. No sense in getting ill over this as you need to think more about your wife and family too since they need you so very dearly as they face their existing health issues. I say this with all humility and respect.
Kind regards,
Rocky
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Post by rockynv on Aug 10, 2017 22:55:05 GMT -5
Yet those are 1/4 mile timings and speeds.
Folks who were in the jet set of racing said similar about my kid brothers pea green 67 Falcon. Impossible, they just should have been glad they weren't racing for pink slips when he beat them with 10 second quarter miles from an old street car that he drove to and from the track and was his daily driver. You could have bought a house here for what he put into that 351 Cleveland back in the day. It was just a sun faded pea green 2 door brick that was blue printed, braced and Bossed out underneath from front to back.
Now he is a respectable businessman driving a Honda MiniVan or Suv and wishes he had invested all that money he threw into engines and race fees at property or other investments so he could have been semi-retired already.
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