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Post by bandito2 on Sept 23, 2015 11:37:02 GMT -5
   I don't know, maybe it's just the way I'm wired but I'm having a hard time understanding why a good portion of folks that get Chinese bikes almost universally go for modifications to increase the output of their scooter when for probably the same or less or maybe just a little more $$ they could just get a scooter with a larger cc, higher output engine in the first place. For some, especially the 50cc crowd I can see where they would want more oomph and try possibly to skirt around licensing issues by putting a BBK on their little scooters and the law would be none the wiser. But for scooters larger than that with the intent of the scooter being used for commuting and being anything other than a racing machine, I just don't get it. It would be understandable to do that for the sake of experimentation or racing and I have no issue with that at all. In fact, that sort of thing is interesting and fun but higher costs and failures should be an expected possibility. However, for a commuting vehicle, which may be their only or main source of mobility, it just does not make sense to go through all the work, frustration and cost to risk going that route. Modifications and replacement parts to improve reliability and usability DO make sense. I would consider variator/clutch upgrades, (sliders/rollers, belt , springs) better spark plugs and possibly better ignition systems to be generally acceptable forms of usability upgrades. Though probably some of the CVT improvements might be a bit pricey for what they would do. But it is the "HP performance" enhancements that I am speaking of here. BB Kits, up-jetting, pipes, heads, cams, carburetors or EFI kits, cranks and pistons intended to increase HP are the kinds of things I mean. IMO, if one is going to get ANY bike as their main ride that they'd be depending on and are interested in a particular bike that may be just a little under powered, then IMO skip it, save yourself the time, trouble and cost of attempting HP enhancements and Just get a bigger bike. (and use extra $$ for reliability & usability upgrades) 
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Post by cookees on Sept 23, 2015 12:32:26 GMT -5
Your right on target. As a dealer I used to tell people that the difference between an okay scooter and a great scooter is around $600. Time after time I'd see them purchase the cheaper scooter, only to see them back in the shop within a year. Talk about a dilemma, we made a very good dollar on all the repairs.
We were a SYM/Lance dealer for about 2.5 years when I was asked, "What kind a problems do the SYM's have?" I told them , "I don't know....we've never had one back for any repairs other than oil changes and one set of disc brake pads."
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Post by novaraptor on Sept 23, 2015 12:57:03 GMT -5
True words, Bandito, but I think sometimes what happens is that the bike is purchased with expectations of speed that is unrealistic. Once the performance is found to be lacking, the decision is made that it could be made "just a little" faster for another hundred bucks or so. Cheaper than trying to sell the first scooter and then buying another. So the chase begins. And it has been noted more than once in the forums that a lot of the rides that continually have problems are ones that have been modded. I think that if the Chinese engineers thought that they could reliably squeeze more than around 17hp out of a carbureted 250cc motor, they would have done so. On one motorcycle forum I read probably the best advise for improving performance. Want a faster bike? Go on a diet and lose a few pounds.. Obviously, not for everyone..
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Post by spandi on Sept 23, 2015 16:44:48 GMT -5
I never got this either, over and over people buy a BBK only to get help here when it malfunctions. A 150-250cc scoot with a good pdi and upgraded parts will have the speed you need without ending up on the garage floor in pieces. |
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Post by hillbillybob on Sept 23, 2015 18:58:44 GMT -5
I think a lot of it is just youthful exuberance.......give them another twenty or so trips around our sun, let them gain a little wisdom......they will one day realize the truth was spoken when someone said, "You can't make a silk purse, out of a sow's ear".
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a sow's ear, as I happen to be really fond of the one I own......still running strong, not one breakdown, and after 8200+ miles, it still amazes me.
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Post by wheelbender6 on Sept 23, 2015 19:17:31 GMT -5
"almost universally go for modifications to increase the output of their scooter when for probably the same or less or maybe just a little more $$ they could just get a scooter with a larger cc, higher output engine in the first place. "
I agree, but remember that Americans love to customize their vehicles. We enjoy hanging aftermarket intakes, exhausts, suspension parts and such on our bikes so that they don't look like everybody else's. We will buy the lesser model or trim level to have some money left to customize it.
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Post by ricardoguitars on Sept 23, 2015 21:05:47 GMT -5
Some of us enjoy tinkering with this things, even if we got a 1000cc scooter we will always want to get a bit more out of with with such and such mod, that eternal "what if..." question, not sure if it's a condition or a disease, tinkerosis I heard is the name, we can't avoid it.  |
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Post by oldchopperguy on Sept 23, 2015 23:13:10 GMT -5
Woo-HOO!
I just gotta chime in here, because this is about the first thread in which I totally agree with ALL the posts!
After many decades of riding big bikes, then a time with NO bike, I bought my first scooter... A Chinese Xingyue Eagle 150 (the quintessential generic 150...) No surprises, it did all the typical "things Chinese" that aggravate the bejeebers out of us, but a real bargain at $700 delivered to my door.
I did all the typical improvements in ignition, carburetion, variator/weights, exhaust, etc., etc. After two seasons of nothing but wrenching, I ended up with as SWEET-running a Chinese 150 as one could ask for. Total expense was about $1,100 including the original purchase of $700. And, it was quick as a 150 is likely to get, and 100% reliable for six years.
I did a LOT of wrenching and modding, and DID get his top speed up to 62 mph from 55... On a cool day, flat road and no wind... And at a reasonable rpm. However, a 52-55 mph cruise-speed was ALL considering hills and wind. I also got a lot better acceleration and gas mileage. All one could realistically want in a 150... And, the local scooteristas loved the look of Bubb'a motor, and the barking "cackle" of that 2-stroke chamber-exhaust... LOL! These pipes run GREAT on 4-strokes! A lesson I learned from my kart-racing days back in the stone-age sixties...
Lil' Bubba was one SWEET, "Bad-Azz'd 150"... But... he was STILL a 150, albeit a very good one. Bubba ran very strong, but was still NO match for even a Taiwan-made, air-cooled "200". A used "loaner" Kymco "People 200" from my dealer (which has actually ONLY a 163 cc Gy6 motor) could run circles around any Chinese 150 I ever tried, even seriously modded ones. And, Italian 250's are downright FAST!
As local surface traffic got faster and faster, "Lil Bubba" simply could no longer safely compete. So I traded him off on a used Kymco 250. Well, that turned out to be good move. "Minnie Mouse" has proved to be the very "upgrade" from the old 150 that I was looking for.
This old used Kymco cost me another thousand bucks over what I had in the 150, but the heavy-duty construction, better handling, frisky acceleration and 75+ mph top end is worth every penny. The mouse is still a simple, dated 2-valve, carbureted workhorse, not much bigger than the old 150, but for riding pleasure and hauling capacity, she's in a whole 'nuther world from the Chinese 150's.
With the saddlebags (a great buy, never-used, off eBay for $8...) covering the "Grandvista 250" badges, everybody assumes the mouse is some off-brand Chinese 150... THAT has given me a lot of REALLY fun experiences... LOL!
As for the American fetish for getting a little more speed from ANY vehicle, I'm reminded of a TV feature a while back testing a Suzuki Hyabusa... Professionally dyno-tuned showing OVER 400 hp, and ridden by a pro Japanese racer, they got a 0-60 time of UNDER 2-seconds... Whew! And got a top speed of over 240 mph. Double whew!!! THAT is haulin' the mail "Casey Jones style" in ANYBODY'S book!
When asked if THAT wasn't enough giddyup for anyone, the rider replied "Naahh... It'll go FASTER with nitrous!"
What can I say? Is my modest 19 hp aging Grandvista fast enough? Naahh... the mouse could do better... But I'm happy with what she's got right now. Of course, I do plan to play with the variator/weights/rollers... THAT did wonders for "Lil Bubba"!
In closing, I strongly recommend that if you need to run over 65, or carry a passenger, get at LEAST a Japanese, Taiwanese or Italian 250 or bigger if possible! Today, you can find these brand-name scooters affordably priced (especially used) and nearly as small and nimble as a 150. You don't need to get into a long, heavy "maxi-scooter" just to get the performance you hoped in vain to get from a modded 150... And most likely with greater reliability.
Ride what floats yer' boat, but ride safe!
Leo in Texas |
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Post by rockynv on Sept 23, 2015 23:46:49 GMT -5
I was faced with the same dilemma as maintenance on the Lance 150 was getting out of hand so that it was eating up too much personal time and causing too many late and lost days at work. The better 250 only cost a few hundred more than the local "Bargain" 250 and cost less to run and maintain than the 150cc bike I owned. 30,000 miles so far with nothing more than oil changes and regularly scheduled maintenance and it gets better fuel economy too. Plus it will accept tuners such as a Rapid Bike Box, FatDuc, etc since it uses the same Italian fuel injection system as most of the high end sport bikes and standard motorcycles.
You can't escape the fact that the candle that burns more brightly generally burns out more quickly than the others of the same size. If you want it to burn brighter without getting a bigger candle it just will not last as long.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Sept 24, 2015 0:07:52 GMT -5
I was faced with the same dilemma as maintenance on the Lance 150 was getting out of hand so that it was eating up too much personal time and causing too many late and lost days at work. The better 250 only cost a few hundred more than the local "Bargain" 250 and cost less to run and maintain than the 150cc bike I owned. 30,000 miles so far with nothing more than oil changes and regularly scheduled maintenance and it gets better fuel economy too. Plus it will accept tuners such as a Rapid Bike Box, FatDuc, etc since it uses the same Italian fuel injection system as most of the high end sport bikes and standard motorcycles. You can't escape the fact that the candle that burns more brightly generally burns out more quickly than the others of the same size. If you want it to burn brighter without getting a bigger candle it just will not last as long. ABSOLUTELY!
Back in my karting days, we got 150 cc (approx. 10 cid) 2-stroke McCulloch kart motors on nitro, to put out 40 hp or more, at over 22K rpm... We called 'em "live fast, die young" motors... LOL! The livin' truth! Four or five races and they were toast. But good grief, would they FLY!!! I trio of them on a Rathman Exterminator pushed me to OVER 200 mph once at an Illinois road-race track. THAT is an "E-ticket ride" 2-inches off the ground, on tires marked "45 mph maximum speed..."
And THAT was with direct-chain-drive, NO gears or CVT... I think our wheel-rpms must have exceeded 10K!
Old "Minnie Mouse" now has 16K miles on her clock... The first 14K put on by the original owner, in his words "mostly WOT on the freeway, two-up, loaded-down... From New York to California and Canada to Mexico..." Those little 12" wheels have covered some SERIOUS distances...
That's the kind of reliability we all like!
Enjoy the ride!
Leo
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Post by horace on Sept 24, 2015 15:18:21 GMT -5
Interesting topic....... First off, many folks buy a 50cc scooter because of the law involved... Getting a "bigger bike" negates the purpose of buying cheap transportation without hassle........ No extra license or rules to follow, Then again, maybe a beginner should start at a low displacement and learn how things work. That way, an educated purchase can be made on what suites personal needs. Then theirs the separate issue of modification itself.... How many folks buy the most expensive car available, then dump another few hundred thousand to make it unique.... People mod for different reasons, Telling someone with a Tomos Streetmate, or China 150 " You should have bought a real bike" Is not for anyone to judge. As long as you're having fun and learning, Who cares..... It Is all about the Ride  |
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Post by oldchopperguy on Sept 24, 2015 17:03:37 GMT -5
Horace,
You're right. People DO mod their vehicles because, well... Americans are individualists! God bless 'em... Most all of us want to put our personal "brand" on our rides.
As for the 50 cc scoots, they ARE the quintessential budget transportation where they are not regulated. Just like a bicycle only SO much better... Sadly, that benefit is not available everywhere. Here in Texas for example, a 50, or even a bicycle with one of those teensy 2-stroke conversion motors must be titled, licensed and insured. If it has a motor, by TX law it is a "motor vehicle" and subject to the same regs as the family car.
So around here, you see very few 50's. Riders gravitate to a 150 to ride a little safer with surface traffic. When they find THAT is not enough, they spend hundreds of bucks modding the 150, only to find THAT still isn't enough, and they finally pony up and get a 250 or bigger. That's what I did, along with a number of my saddle-pals...
As you say though, whatever you ride, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE RIDE!
Leo (enjoying that ride) in Texas
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Post by ghcoe on Sept 24, 2015 22:22:04 GMT -5
I think the Asians got us beat on personalizing their scooters.
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Post by murkyapricot on Sept 25, 2015 0:26:20 GMT -5
I think the Asians got us beat on personalizing their scooters. That is pure scooter porn |
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Post by rockynv on Sept 25, 2015 2:26:27 GMT -5
Interesting topic....... First off, many folks buy a 50cc scooter because of the law involved... Getting a "bigger bike" negates the purpose of buying cheap transportation without hassle........ No extra license or rules to follow.....) Once you mod the 50 to go faster than the law allowing it to be ridden without a license or insurance allows then it becomes a motorcycle requiring a license and insurance so the speed mods negate the benefits of being under the legal requirements and make it unlawful which will bite you in the event that you get into an accident and you are caught as an unlicensed rider without insurance riding a bike modified out of its original classification. Any other insurances you have often will not cover you while doing something illegal such as driving without a license. I understand that many do not comprehend or care about the ethics of all this however it is not ethical or legal to pass off a modified 50cc bike capable of speeds over the limits imposed for an unlicensed motorbike as a unregulated 50cc bike that does not require licensing or insurance. It does not matter if the registry in your area does not make it easy to register and insure the modified bikes or how may others do it and get away with it as they are no longer street legal without insurance and licensing once they are modified to exceed the speed rating for uninsured/unregistered bikes. |
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