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Post by rockynv on Apr 28, 2017 4:05:57 GMT -5
I personally have never witnessed a catastrophic chain failure in 55 years but I know they exist. In the years of being on scooter forums tales of belt failures are legion. It's exposed to heat from the engine, the friction of CVT operation and the stress of engagement. In my salad days I went to many bike nights and witnessed numerous mindless displays that left chains intact. Yours is the first time time I've ever heard of people riding long distances on scooters. It's good to hear it's happening but I wonder why I almost never hear of it in a place like Modern Vespa. Motorcycle stories are everywhere. I've done some long rides on the CF Moto but given my 750 Kawasaki has shaft drive I wouldn't even consider a scooter for an extended trip. It's a much better option. The motorcycles I have dealt with over the years were all prone to the foibles of chain drives. Chains slinging grease, stretching, breaking, wearing the sprockets thin stripping off teath, etc. You tour on a Motorcycle and you bring repair links and a chain press tool ensuring before you leave that there is enough adjustment left to make it through the trip. Was a problem on the 50cc mopeds and still had to be considered on the Norton Commando 850 that I rode. Riders cope by waxing the chains instead of oiling them, going to double o-rings instead of single, cooking them in a pot on the stove to get the oil grease out and suck the new in as the pot and chain cools. There always seems to be some new wiz bang cleaning system being hawked to help deal with the issue too. Then there is the issue with the rubber damper inside the hub of the wheel that the driven sprocket is attached to failing and having to be replaced to consider too. Motorcycles are not perfect and the multitude of problems one faces with a chain driven motorcycle was one of the design issues Piaggio was trying to overcome when they came up with the first Vespa. My next door neighbor was happy as a clam in a fresh mud bank when he traded his chain drive for a Boxer Engined BMW sport touring bike with a shaft drive. Those hugh heads sticking out the sides throwing all that heat and such aren't my cup of tea but it is a really silent running bike. I told him to stop talking and breathing so I could hear the engine running the first time he showed it to me and that really wasn't a very big exageration the thing was so quiet and civilized. Anyways no bike is perfect and you have to find the one that you can best deal with. People though are people and some no matter how hard they try just mess things up when they deal with mechanical devices. In an endurance rally you have to be on top of your preventative maintenance, personal health and have your route and alternates well planned out before you even show up at the starting line if you want to have a good chance of crossing the finish line riding on the bike and not in the cab of a retrieval vehicle. The scooter I ride is designed for highway running at a constant 75 mph though its capable of more and has a service schedule for oil changes and belt services that basically allows one to ride from coast to coast twice per oil change, 4 times before belt changes and 8 times between valve adjustment checks. Many will mess up and kill a belt prior to that simply by failing to check the filter or by using alternate belts. Some cause their belts to fail sooner, and I know some will have fits at my even hinting at the thought of this, by changing the contra springs to heavier ones in their clutch which lets face it is going to raise the clamping force on the sides of the belt raising it operating temperature and causing it to wear out more rapidly along with raise the chances of wearing grooves in the drive faces. You cut the cooling fins off the drive face to eliminate rotating mass on the crankshaft (thats really just for short track and drag racing) and again you've shot yourself in the foot and started down the path to early belt failure by reducing clean air flowing though the CVT case. Then there is the crowd that balks at using the correct tools to install a variator and clutch causing their own problems introducing wobbles, etc by setting torques incorrectly, etc. How many fail to perform the simple task of putting a dab of grease in the needle bearings that the clutch idles on? Its all the little details of maintenance that become the big issues with reliability on the road. |
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Post by w650 on Apr 28, 2017 4:35:51 GMT -5
I think you overstate the problems with chain drive. My 1974 Kawasaki 500 triple never gave me a moments issue and it was pre-O ring. I lubed the chain every 200 miles in daily use and did several 500 mile days with zero issues. My O-ring bikes are even less trouble. 20,000 miles of use before replacement are not only easy but expected.
I'm glad you have had so much luck with your scooter but it's not the norm. Belt breakages and premature wear are the norm with most scooters. My research at Modern Vespa has revealed that despite being so expensive they suffer from many of the same problems that even China scoots do. Constant maintenance, oddball breakages and low overall mileages before unit replacements. Any motorcycle will outlast a scooter under the same use.
My Honda Rebel had its first chain adjustment at 10,500 miles with its O ring chain. My 1991 Honda Nighthawk at only 15,000 miles, admittedly, is wearing its original chain and has plenty of service left. Simple designs with a single carburetor for two cylinders and MSRPs lower than a Primavera 150. Even now a Honda Rebel 300 is almost a thousand dollars less than a 150 Vespa and will give service a $7000 300 Vespa can only dream of. If someone offered me a choice of a BV 350 or a 300 Versys for free I wouldn't even think twice. There is no comparison. The Kawasaki is better built, faster and more durable. And it's Japanese from a company cleaning up in World Superbike.
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Apr 28, 2017 5:26:29 GMT -5
Riders cope by waxing the chains instead of oiling them, going to double o-rings instead of single, cooking them in a pot on the stove to get the oil grease out and suck the new in as the pot and chain cools. There always seems to be some new wiz bang cleaning system being hawked to help deal with the issue too. i've heard quite a bit about the pros and cons of oiling chains. one side seems to think it's the natural thing to do, while the other side says oil and grease picks up all kinds of dust and debris which turns the oil into a scouring paste. waxing would seem to be the best option, but it too turns to liquid and you are right back to the problem above. i wonder if there could be chains made out of teflon or some similar material. this is one of the things i liked the best about my chinese ride, its mechanical simplicity. you could dismantle the entire bike with a hand full of tools weighing roughly 5 to 10 pounds. another interesting point. its been said 2 pairs of shoes being worn alternately will outlast the same 2 pair if worn one after the other. does this mean that 2 belts rated at 10,000 miles will last 30,000 if swapped out every 1,000 or so miles? this is a very simple job with a CVT, and if the CVT doesn't have a cover, requires no tools. i've given this some thought in regards to my overheating problem and i came up with the following but never tried it: i was thinking about making the CVT a part of the carb intake. ducting the carb intake to the CVT and let the engine itself pull air through the CVT, but i couldn't figure out how to connect the air filter to the CVT. not to mention crushing the variator oil seals. this isn't as easy as it sounds. first, the bearings are deep inside the clutch, too deep for your fingers. second, grease is fatal to friction surfaces such as clutch pads, and too much grease will be slung out. i found that a popsicle stick works to massage the grease into the needles. and it needs to be the type of grease that stays where you put it a really great post rocky. |
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Apr 28, 2017 5:34:34 GMT -5
I lubed the chain every 200 miles in daily use and did several 500 mile days with zero issues. i assume you are talking about 8 to 12 hours of nonstop riding. talk about your iron butt awards . . . |
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Post by w650 on Apr 28, 2017 13:43:52 GMT -5
I lubed the chain every 200 miles in daily use and did several 500 mile days with zero issues. i assume you are talking about 8 to 12 hours of nonstop riding. talk about your iron butt awards . . . No kidding. My 500 triple rode like a buckboard on level roads. With Mulholland shocks and K-81 Dunlop it cornered like a demon. On long highway rides it was uncomfortable. My KZ-1000 shafty was the knee jerk reaction. It rode much better. |
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Post by rockynv on Apr 28, 2017 23:29:16 GMT -5
Lubing the chain at just about every gas stop does not sound very appealing compared to cleaning a filter every 2,000 to 3,000 miles and changing a belt every 12,500 miles. To go 12,500 miles on a Piaggio Scooter your talking about 4 to 6 filter cleanings, 2 oil changes and a belt change while your talking about 60 chain services and more oil changes to offset the wet clutch contaminants to cover the same distance. Even if the chain lasts twice as long as the belt your talking about over 122 services to cover 25,000 miles on the motorcycle compared to about a dozen on the scooter. Yes I undestand that some folks mess up their scooters and get less than stellar belt service intervals on thier Piaggio bikes however if they followed the rules 100% they could get the same level of reliability that I have been getting as I have no magic touch and just follow whats printed in the service station manual for the most part and a few tips from the service bulletins that the Piaggion trained mechs at the local dealerships have shared with me.
You're not making a very good case for the motorcycle as the numbers you've presented are a bit overwhelming.
Go with what works for you is probably the best I can leave it at.
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Post by w650 on Apr 29, 2017 1:19:02 GMT -5
I never lubed a chain every gas stop. For one the oil wouldn't settle in. As for the chain I'm quoting, a 1974 Kawasaki, it was long before the advent of O Ring Chain. On my Laconia weekends I did close to 1,000 miles and might have lubed the chain once, at night after shutdown one day. If I did it with a new O Ring chain I might lube it once before leaving and then when I got home after the thousand miles. Cleaning a filter might be easy but the nagging feeling that a belt would fail far from home, on the road, is not a comfort.
If you read the thread on the 2016 Cannonball you saw belt replacements mentioned frequently on a short 4,000 mile trip. Even more amusing is the fact that most of the scooters were trailered to the start and from the finish. If I won, uh competed, with my Honda Rebel I would ride to the start and from the finish. Maybe I would lube the chain at the end of a few days since it takes all of a minute and is cheap insurance.
It isn't just mileage that abuses a belt either. My 2009 CF Moto Fashion needed its Bando Kevlar belt replaced at 9,000 miles with cracking between the teeth a couple of years ago. Of course by then it was six years old and dried out. My 2009 Honda Rebel has the original chain, as does my 1991 Nighthawk and my daughter's 2005 Rebel, and none are dried out and have years of service left.
Face it Rocky any chain will outlast a belt. Recall that even in the days of non O Ring Renolds chains service life was upwards of 20,000 miles with a little care. Belts are nowhere near that reliable, even today. We won't go into variator failures on a long trip.
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Post by cyborg55 on Apr 29, 2017 14:50:29 GMT -5
I run o-ring DID chains with JT tool steel sprockets ,, no complaints from me ,,, they last a good long time,,,chain lube every five hundred miles or so,,,I try to lube them the day before a run because they will fling a bit when wet ,,,belts are very reliable when cared for and if its quality to begin with,,, and I've had and own bmws with shafts,,, the least maintenance intensive of any of them,,, they work great as well,,
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Post by Jarlaxle on Apr 29, 2017 20:40:51 GMT -5
I never lubed a chain every gas stop. For one the oil wouldn't settle in. As for the chain I'm quoting, a 1974 Kawasaki, it was long before the advent of O Ring Chain. On my Laconia weekends I did close to 1,000 miles and might have lubed the chain once, at night after shutdown one day. If I did it with a new O Ring chain I might lube it once before leaving and then when I got home after the thousand miles. Cleaning a filter might be easy but the nagging feeling that a belt would fail far from home, on the road, is not a comfort. If you read the thread on the 2016 Cannonball you saw belt replacements mentioned frequently on a short 4,000 mile trip. Even more amusing is the fact that most of the scooters were trailered to the start and from the finish. If I won, uh competed, with my Honda Rebel I would ride to the start and from the finish. Maybe I would lube the chain at the end of a few days since it takes all of a minute and is cheap insurance. It isn't just mileage that abuses a belt either. My 2009 CF Moto Fashion needed its Bando Kevlar belt replaced at 9,000 miles with cracking between the teeth a couple of years ago. Of course by then it was six years old and dried out. My 2009 Honda Rebel has the original chain, as does my 1991 Nighthawk and my daughter's 2005 Rebel, and none are dried out and have years of service left. Face it Rocky any chain will outlast a belt. Recall that even in the days of non O Ring Renolds chains service life was upwards of 20,000 miles with a little care. Belts are nowhere near that reliable, even today. We won't go into variator failures on a long trip. Pablum. Plenty of belt-drive bikes go more than 20,000 miles on a belt. I recall Harleys call for a new belt at 30K, and many owners go more than that. One reason my wife loves her Pacific Coast is the bulletproof shaft drive...  ,000 miles, no service beyond changing the oil. |
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Post by pistonguy on Apr 29, 2017 21:38:35 GMT -5
I can't even remember the last time I did anything to my "O" ring chain other than Use it.
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Post by rockynv on Apr 30, 2017 7:17:22 GMT -5
W650 - You said "I lubed the chain every 200 miles in daily use" which on a motorcyle is at every gas stop or on some with the double sized tanks you'd be stopping halfway to your next gas stop and lubricating the chain.
Fire rescue paramedics that I have spoken too in person tell me that easily 25% of single vehicle motorcycle accidents involve chain failure however they only account for about 3% of the fatal motorcycle accidents since many involve the chain failing while starting off from a stop and the rider falling over from the sudden loss of power or sudden stop if it jambs up.
Sprocket wear - These pretty much exemplify what I have been seeing over the past 40 some odd years:
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Post by w650 on Apr 30, 2017 10:29:22 GMT -5
I said. "My 1974 Kawasaki 500 triple never gave me a moments issue and it was pre-O ring. I lubed the chain every 200 miles in daily use and did several 500 mile days with zero issues."
I sold that bike in 1980 with 30,000 miles. At the time I had a six mile round trip work day. I guess I didn't point that out. Chain lubes happened every other week. The original chain lasted 20,000 miles and was replaced with a Renolds chain with a connecting link. I sold that bike in April 1980 when I bought my shaft drive KZ1000st. During my Laconia trips I only lubed the chain once as insurance during my 1,000 mile trip.
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Post by pistonguy on Apr 30, 2017 15:41:02 GMT -5
H-1 500 Tripple, Fast but a rickety frame Snit Box. My 71&1/2 Drag Racer.  |
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Post by pistonguy on Apr 30, 2017 15:46:00 GMT -5
W650 - You said "I lubed the chain every 200 miles in daily use" which on a motorcyle is at every gas stop or on some with the double sized tanks you'd be stopping halfway to your next gas stop and lubricating the chain. Fire rescue paramedics that I have spoken too in person tell me that easily 25% of single vehicle motorcycle accidents involve chain failure however they only account for about 3% of the fatal motorcycle accidents since many involve the chain failing while starting off from a stop and the rider falling over from the sudden loss of power or sudden stop if it jambs up. Sprocket wear - These pretty much exemplify what I have been seeing over the past 40 some odd years: Seriously anybody running sprockets to that degree is too Stupid to be on a bike Period.............. And the same Village Idiots run there tires near bald witch is that major contributor to accidents. No rider or maintenance course will help these Fools!! I get to the point at my age and experience, they just wad there junk up and stay on the porch were they belonged in the first place. I guess ya just can't fix stupid. |
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Post by rockynv on Apr 30, 2017 16:25:52 GMT -5
Piston - This is all to common an occurance out there on the street. And yes most riders should not be out there on a bike. I have mentioned this before however at least half the riders who were at the MSF class I attended when I got my Florida Motorcycle Endorsement were there to get their bikes out of impound for riding without a license. Many could not pass the Basic Riders Course and failed on the first day out on the training grounds.
To be fair some riders although they followed the book did see this level of sprocket wear in a few thousand miles making one wonder if they simply got into a bad batch of them or some fake oem look-a-likes. Possibly the tire techs not aligning the rear wheel properly could be to blame in some instances too. Some seem like their tuning a banjo starting at the highest pitched string when they adjust a chain.
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,000 miles, no service beyond changing the oil.
