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Post by scootnwinn on Aug 30, 2013 14:52:38 GMT -5
Well there you have it Jim a definitive answer to your inquiry for scientific analysis from Prodigit our resident pseudo-scientist.
All I can say is I have been looking at engines and motorcycles a long time and Chinese manufacturing looks bad. I know its not scientific but I have never ever seen a Japanese welded on bolt hole or bracket tear off the frame like it was perforated for removal. The Jonway did this 3 times. I know this isn't as good as your X-ray machine but there is a difference.
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Post by spandi on Aug 30, 2013 18:38:38 GMT -5
Yep it's True! I can find my scooter at night just by sniffing around for it!
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Post by ltdhpp on Aug 30, 2013 19:04:27 GMT -5
How about the guy here with the Znen who's clutch arms are literally disintegrating at 6,000 miles? The pot metal covering the stacks of steel plates that make the clutch arms is just flaking off. The same pot metal that the friction pads are attached to...
Or the guy who had his Chinese aluminum wheel completely shear off at the hub for no reason?
Or how about almost EVERY Chinese scooter that has had at least one muffler mount broken/cracked/re-welded several times? Or that has stripped the exhaust port stud holes by looking at them too hard? M6 size studs for exhaust in a pot metal aluminum head? c'mon!!!!
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Post by spandi on Aug 30, 2013 21:10:36 GMT -5
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Post by danno on Aug 31, 2013 5:38:49 GMT -5
Nice research. The problem is if you were to have read the thread, you would have discovered the issue wasn't because of manufacturing specs, but because the previous owner of the bike screwed it up. "Smitty, you are genius! I've reassembled the clutch according to your instructions and now it is evident there no way the world these metal pieces can get out of place. The previous owner(s) must have assembled it wrong at one point or another. Thanks for your help again!"
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Post by rockynv on Aug 31, 2013 5:44:54 GMT -5
Yes unfortunatly Piaggio did try mentoring Chinese manufacturers and received some sub standard parts from them that were problematic. At the Aprilia assembly plant in Italy they collect all parts that they find substandard when assembling the bikes and return them to the suppliers telling them what they did wrong and how to correct the issues. They also pull random bikes ready for delivery from the warehouse and completly dissasemble them to double check both their own workers and how the subcontracted assemblies worked together once the bikes were assembled and run on their test track. Piaggio has since been aggresively mentoring Chinese Industry in improving quality so that they can stay approved parts suppliers and this effort is trickling down as we see quality improving in the newer Chinese branded bikes. When there are problems with Piaggio bikes as noted there are recalls and free technical services offered to correct them even long after the warranty has expired. The services are usually done free of charge with Piaggio paying the cost of all parts and labor.
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Post by danno on Aug 31, 2013 6:09:38 GMT -5
I'm really new at this but prior to deciding on the Burgman I eventually purchased the Chinese Scoots and their prices is what initially got me interested in the idea of buying a scooter.
After asking lots of questions and doing my research, I discovered that the Chinese bikes aren't so much built from a manufacturer who has their own designers and engineers like other known companies rather, they're cloned bikes. What that meant to me is the Chinese were of the character of ripping off the designs of their competition, but they used substandard parts.
Here in America, the practice of ripping off the competition is not tolerated. However, in China ripping off the competition is a way of life.
Not only do they rip off the designs but they try name a bike that doesn't sound like its made in the People's Republic of China. Tank, Geely, Xtreme, Motofino, Strada, and Verucci, don't sound like they're made in the People's Republic of China...and that's not by accident. They're trying to fool the public. The name Schwinn here in the US meant quality....Schwinn can now be found on cheap Chinese imitation scooters. It's all designed to trick an uneducated buyer.
I just couldn't allow myself to do business with companies that have such a manipulative philosophy with doing business. If those sort of things don't bother you, that's entirely your business.
I'm out.
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Post by spandi on Aug 31, 2013 7:23:25 GMT -5
Naah, the Chinese just use the engine designs and equipment the Japanese have long since discarded. "Here in America the practice of ripping off the competition is not tolerated" REALLY? (you want some more ice cream and birthday cake to go with that?) But I guess gouging out the wallet of the CONSUMER is fine? All of this reminds me of those people who bought "Designer" jeans back in the 80's (they had fancy Italian names too) and were justifying how much "better" the quality was after paying 500 bucks for what was in reality a pair of dungarees. D8
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Post by RapidJim on Aug 31, 2013 8:22:13 GMT -5
Well there you have it Jim a definitive answer to your inquiry for scientific analysis. All I can say is I have been looking at engines and motorcycles a long time and Chinese manufacturing looks bad. I know its not scientific but I have never ever seen a Japanese welded on bolt hole or bracket tear off the frame like it was perforated for removal. The Jonway did this 3 times. I know this isn't as good as your X-ray machine but there is a difference. Not really a scientific anaalysis, where is the data and source quotes?, Did you notice the clarifier: You know what? I would like to see a document from a real study that proves the Chinese are using inferior metal in comparison to the Japanese in the production of their scooters. Chinese materials ARE inferior to Japanese materials. Not by much, but they are. . The issue has always been " my toy is better than your toy" . When folks use the term "inferior" they are usually not referring to "not much", they are degrading the "inferior" product. They attempt to persuade folks that the machine is not road worthy or will not last. Example: A Cavilier is inferior to a Cadillac. Does that mean the Cavilier is not road worthy or will not last 200,000 miles or will not give good service? IMO and experience, a Chinese machine that is properly maintained and not abused will give many miles and years of great service at a fraction of the cost of their competitors. Also, replacement parts are really inexpensive compared to others. I am not saying that there is not room for improvement, there is always room for that, in any machine. Oh well, to each their own. We all have opinions. Jim
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Post by RapidJim on Aug 31, 2013 8:32:57 GMT -5
HEY guys- When the conversations start to get nasty ,isn't it time to change the subject ? If there are people that don't like Chinese scooters ,then go out and buy the other types that are on the market. This type of posting doesn't solve a thing . Expressing opinions are one thing ,but expressing nasty remarks are something else. Lets get back to helping the members that are having problems OK??? Right now I have to replace a brand new carburetor just because the Gov't ruled that it must be set at the factory and then sealed so it cannot be reset in a different climate. Any of you people have that problem??? Where it is true that the EPA has required manufacturers to seal off the air/fuel adjustment screw and use tamper proof screws on the fuel bowls. I do not know of any law that says you can not remove them and do your adjustments. The seal for the air/fuel adjustment screw is either a brass or aluminum plug that cane easy be removed by drill a small hole in it, screwing a small sheet metal screw into the hole, and using a pair of pliers to pull the plug out. I could not find the info here so I posted 2 links from 2 other boards. Here is a link to another board that shows the plug being removed scooterdoc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=intake&action=display&thread=5571Here is a link to show how to remove the tamper proof screws thescooterprofessor.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=afcall&action=display&thread=838Jim
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Post by scootnwinn on Aug 31, 2013 9:07:24 GMT -5
Jim I was joking about prodigit's post. I'd like to see the xrays you took with the analysis machine you said you have because some of the welds on the frame I had looked like they painted over a booger they wiped on there...
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Post by gitsum on Aug 31, 2013 9:14:42 GMT -5
[A Cavilier is inferior to a Cadillac. Does that mean the Cavilier is not road worthy or will not last 200,000 miles or will not give good service? IMO and experience, a Chinese machine that is properly maintained and not abused will give many miles and years of great service at a fraction of the cost of their competitors. Also, replacement parts are really inexpensive compared to others. A Cavalier will not stay on the road as long as a Toyota given the same maintenance. But an even bigger difference in quality is observed with poor maintenance. The Toyota can be neglected and still perform with admirable reliability, the Cavalier will not enjoy the same trouble free longevity by a large margin. The same applies to a Chinese scooter vs. a Taiwanese or Japanese scooter. The price savings of a Chinese scooter just isn't a valid argument anymore. People will pay $1300 - $1500 for a " better" quality Znen 150cc. But now you can buy several different SYM or Kymko models assembled in China for $1800 to $1900. Let's not even compare a $995 "internet special", after all the point of this comparison is determining whether or not quality and durability is equal between Chinese brands vs. Taiwanese/Japanese ones.
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Post by JR on Aug 31, 2013 9:54:00 GMT -5
I've been reading and monitoring this thread from the start and there are a lot of good points here pro and con and yes it has bordered on the theme of political and has had a few moments where I've been concerned about a flame war but over all everyone has been able to keep things in a perspective that allows this discussion to keep moving forward. I'm going to add my (o) for what it's worth. The title of this thread opens a lot of doors. For those who are Chinese scooter fans/owners it questions why the arrogance but it IMO also addresses other products as well. This in turn opens another door and for the opinions of the name brand people who think Chinese products are inferior and do not own/ride any of them. Since both doors are open then opinions are going to come and be allowed from both. There's where we sometimes get in to trouble. An opinion of they are inferior and even called junk is allowed as long as someone isn't directly in a rude and offensive manner calling other member's scooters junk and insulting someone. That was mentioned by a member in this thread and on the other side of the coin it was mentioned by a member here that you asked this question so you need to also hear why the arrogance. IMO there was no insult nor rudeness, again one is entitled to an opinion. Poking fun at something which all of us do sometimes again as long as it is not directed in a blatantly offensive manner towards another member is not being rude or offensive. We've had opinions on why some think they are inferior because of metal and then a good rebuttal from a member who works and deals with scooters everyday and both were very well said and informative nothing wrong with that. We also have discussed labor standards, and practices here and there and haven't let it get out of hand on the bad subject of political so far and let's keep it that way. So with all that said here's how I see it or my opinion. It's no secret that I own/ride Chinese 250 scooters and I own 4 scooters 50cc to 250cc and all are Chinese for various reasons I own them. I also believe very much in the power and results of the PDI and when I say this I mean it whole heartily. My 250B now has nearly 13k on it and it's only had a minor hick up or two that hasn't disabled or stranded me, cost me any repair money and I mean none. Also the 13k on this scooter was not babying it either. I've stated this before and I'll state it again, I've made 5 trips from my home in Arkansas to see my sons in Dallas Tx which is 408 miles through the back roads one way or a total of 816 miles round trip. That's over 4k in miles. Most of the time I left on a Friday and came back on Sunday and the last rip was in mid July with temps at 106F when I arrived at Dallas. I rode the snot out my scooter at speeds of 55 mph + and only stopped for gas and a sandwich one time on the way. I wouldn't be afraid of riding this scooter anywhere including the CB run. Would I make it? Don't know? So you ask alright JR are you signed up? Nope. Reason? I thought I was retired and about kid free ( as far as kids at home) until two years ago when I had to take over raising two of my grandchildren now ages 9 and 11. For those of you who have kids these age I don't have to tell you that things like baseball, football, school, and just keeping up with kids eliminates any time to do something like the CB run and my wife is a full time nurse and just wouldn't understand what she would call a nutty idea to try to ride any kind of scooter 3500 miles! ((o p) But I would love to be the first to give it a go on a Chinese scooter. But I am going to do one thing this spring, I'm going to take off to New Orleans and that's a pretty good little ride for sure. As far as inferior metal I can attest to Chinese stainless steel compared to even Brazilian stainless steel. It has poorer strength and in some cases where it is used in a caustic environment, rusting is an issue. My opinion is based upon doing lots of fabrication work in the food industry where items built and used are regulated by USDA and the FDA. Stainless steel is just about the only thing now approved for food contact in the manufacturing process when preparing food items. If it rusts it will be condemned immediately and for some of the companies that I built things for my company which I was a partner in had to provide invoices to the plants as to where or what kind of stainless steel we used as far as grade and where it came from. Some plants would not allow Chinese made stainless steel, period. This was some time ago as I sold my part of the company a few years back. Don't know if that's changed or not? JR
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Post by JR on Aug 31, 2013 10:04:06 GMT -5
[A Cavilier is inferior to a Cadillac. Does that mean the Cavilier is not road worthy or will not last 200,000 miles or will not give good service? IMO and experience, a Chinese machine that is properly maintained and not abused will give many miles and years of great service at a fraction of the cost of their competitors. Also, replacement parts are really inexpensive compared to others. A Cavalier will not stay on the road as long as a Toyota given the same maintenance. But an even bigger difference in quality is observed with poor maintenance. The Toyota can be neglected and still perform with admirable reliability, the Cavalier will not enjoy the same trouble free longevity by a large margin. The same applies to a Chinese scooter vs. a Taiwanese or Japanese scooter. The price savings of a Chinese scooter just isn't a valid argument anymore. People will pay $1300 - $1500 for a " better" quality Znen 150cc. But now you can buy several different SYM or Kymko models assembled in China for $1800 to $1900. Let's not even compare a $995 "internet special", after all the point of this comparison is determining whether or not quality and durability is equal between Chinese brands vs. Taiwanese/Japanese ones. This goes to show you sir how little you know about the Chevy Cavalier and Prism. The Prism is an exact copy of the Toyota Corolla and even has the Corolla engine down to the last nut and bolt. Most of the Cavaliers had Toyota engines. BTW I put over 200k on a Cavalier and my daughter still has a 2000 Prism with 175k and is in the desert with her Marine husband at Twenty Nine palms Calif and the temp yesterday was 114F at 5 p.m. Little car runs like a champ. Also I have a Silverado with 177k on it and it's had a starter and sparkplug wire replacement. 4 X 4 and it'll still out pull the Tundra any day of the week. I just traded in my sons' Toyata Corolla with 135k on it and it was drinking oil, been serviced perfectly. Got him a 2008 Cobalt with 70k on it and it runs sweet. Toyota? Not what they used to be and the Japanese know it. Also more cars are coming home to be built now: www.facebook.com/notes/chevrolet/all-new-name-for-all-new-us-built-small-car-chevrolet-sonic/10150342140320521JR
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Post by sanmar on Aug 31, 2013 11:38:45 GMT -5
Thank you JR, and Jim, and all participating in this interesting debate. I know I don't say much usually, but I can't stop myself here! lol. Over the course of these past few months, I have witnessed from various internet forums, a somewhat disparaging attitude towards those scooters that have been manufactured in China. There is a pervasive stream of insults and unkind nicknames ever pointed in their direction. I know that this sentiment is not expressed by all, and is believed by only a few. We all know personally, or know of through tales, the infamous pain and woe of owning one of these machines, yet despite all of that, many of us still choose to do so. The fact is that when I see footage of people riding hundreds of scooters around in Asian countries, they are not all riding Vespas and Hondas, and more and more of these machines are seen every day here in the States as well. This then begs the question “why?” Primarily the all encompassing answer is affordability. Indeed the China manufactured (CM) machine is much cheaper than its Japanese, Taiwanese, or European counterparts. Much cheaper! In fact, one to two times less expensive! This fact alone is fundamental, for most of us, myself included are not able to afford the body style, displacement etc. that we want type scooter from non-China (NC) made companies. I am not able to purchase a new or even slightly new Honda, Kymco etc. close to the same price as a brand new CM scooter, shipped to my house! This includes paying for a good PDI! It has been mentioned that we may pay less for the product initially but in the end after all the upgrades and mods, we are spending just as much or more than NC scooters. The answer to this is no, not if we don’t want to. I have done the PDI i.e. new hoses, new valve stems, brake fluid, headlight bulb, fuel filter, change my oil often (just because) new battery, and apart from a small compass and velcro clock that’s about it. I did not have to fork over a lot of cash to get my scooter up to par. I don’t have a new cdi, or carb, variator, stator etc. now I may in the future, if I want to, or if something does break down I know how to replace it with, from what I have seen, (and I am still a newb) affordable quality parts. I also know that many CM scooter owners like to mod their bikes with all that stuff, and from the pics I have seen, they are awesome! But they do it because they want to, and some because they may have to, but that still is a choice that we all made. For me I am happy going 45 mph and up to 60 if I want to. I don’t need to be able to go zipping past the mall at mph. Yet, there are those who like to, and they want to be able to, and they can with the mods they make. Again, though, that is by choice. Another reason for us choosing Chinese, is the knowledge that we gain from doing the PDI and our own maintenance etc. The things I learned just by having to put my scooter together and doing the PDI are immeasurable! I am confident that no matter what happens with my scooter, I will be able to handle it. And with the help of the members of this forum, from whom I have learned much already, I will know what to do. Finally, the best reason we buy CM scooters is the fun! Yes, I said fun. When I ordered my baby online, I was like a kid at (insert favorite Holiday here). I could not wait for that truck to arrive. Then it did, and the driver helped me get it in the garage, take the corrugated off and examine the plastics etc. I tipped him 10 bucks bade him farewell, and stood there staring at the new member of the family. I was in love. It took my GF and myself all weekend to PDI and assemble, using the forums and youtube. When we got it running and were able to ride we were ecstatic! The fun has not stopped and that was 2 years ago, and I still can't wait for the next ride! Yes, there have been trials, frustrations, but name something that doesn’t have those, and the reward for successfully diagnosing and succeeding is given in pride, our stories and then the ride! My purpose here is to simply say I know our CM two wheeled friends are different and have our issues, but we love them just as much. We are not saying they are better. We just don’t like people saying they are bad! We have style, and character and we have two wheels. We enjoy the ride as do all our two wheeled friends. We are scooterists, motorcyclists, riders all of us. Just because our bikes are made in China does not make them garbage, nor does it make them better. I just know that we all, with few exceptions, want to share our stories, our knowledge, our kinship with others that have the same passion for two wheels. After all is said and done It is the ride isn’t it?
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