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Post by w650 on Jul 21, 2017 13:35:29 GMT -5
The owner of that BV 250 is Joe Blizman, a man in his 60s who has written glowing reports for years on his scooter. He has zero mechanical skills though and hasn't touched the bike himself, relying on his shop for maintenance. He has had strange issues with it, leaking fork seals and an occasional unsteady idle. I don't know why it's down now but I'm certain it isn't neglect or abuse.
My readings at Modern Vespa.com don't show unbelievable reliability among Piaggio products. The problem as I see it is what constitutes "maintained by the book". Very few people in this world perform every single maintenance item in the schedules on time or with intense devotion. You seem to have a incredible handle on what your Aprilia is feeling and how to soothe its needs. Very few people in this world today have the ability to "Hear your pistons going up and down in the cylinders".
I have dealt with the skepticism of my Chinese scooters being trouble free for years now. I know my machines, I can hear them complain and when they're happy. You and I aren't "Joe Average Citizen" so we have to disqualify ourselves on rating our scooters as "Bulletproof, utterly reliable or able to go 150,000 miles". Either that Rocky or accept what I've heard for almost nine years. "You must have gotten the one good one they ever made".
I've read, seen the evidence and heard the chatter. Most, if not all, scooters have much shorter life expectancy than even the cheapest motorcycle. Scooters are not cheap to maintain and need a lot to stay alive.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Jul 21, 2017 23:39:34 GMT -5
w650,
I just read your post, and I think you're onto something!
That "maintained by the book" syndrome is surely FAR more common among riders of Italian scoots. They are more likely to be ENTHUSIASTS rather than DAILY RIDERS. Enthusiasts treat their rides better than most who just "use" them for transportation. And, better care means less problems!
I think (and this is just my feeling) that the average Joe does the minimum maintenance to keep his/her ride "functional". This brings out the worst in any vehicle. Chinese bikes may succumb to this quicker or more often, but with really good maintenance, as you've found out, they can be plenty reliable.
Japanese bikes tend to be more "bulletproof" and forgiving of "minimal" maintenance so they have a better reputation for withstanding abuse.
I know myself, 40 years ago, I was a true enthusiast and treated my bikes like they were family. I had very few issues, even though those classic oldies were probably WORSE quality than current Chinese makes. Today, I'm old, tired and admittedly do as little as possible beyond changing oil and keeping tires aired up. So far, my old Kymco seems happy without pampering, and reliable as the family Honda car, but the BEST maintenance will surely yield the best longevity with ANY vehicle...
I'm no judge of scooter vs. motorcycle longevity... In my "day" a new Harley was considered to be pretty well trashed at 50K miles, even with careful maintenance... A Cushman or Vespa was generally considered to be DOA at 20-30K miles. Everything is SO much better-made today, but for example, when I compare in my mind, a name brand scooter with a big Honda cruiser... well, I must admit I'd be surprised if the scooter would hold up as long. Fortunately, most scoots seem to last plenty long enough to really get your money's worth from them, and that ain't bad!
Ride safe for all the miles the little wheezers have in them!
Leo in Texas
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Post by Jarlaxle on Jul 22, 2017 7:37:19 GMT -5
I recall someone put 179,000 miles on a 650 Burgman. At least 2 people are over 60K on 400 Burgs. I only have 17K.  But I am getting disgusted at the amount (and cost) of routine service for most bikes, not just scooters. There is no reason we should have to futz with regular valve adjustments in 2017! |
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Post by w650 on Jul 22, 2017 10:28:47 GMT -5
I'm not saying that high mileage is impossible with a scooter. I just want to see the service records or a journal. I do say that a motorcycle with equal mileage would have much less work done. I'm not saying a scooter isn't handy. I'm contesting the comment that maintenance costs are lower. Not to mention all the routine finagling to tighten and replace objects rattled off by single cylinder engines. I recently pulled the seat to replace yet another dead battery from storage and found my air box disconnected because the box mounting bolt fell out. My bikes just don't do stupid things like that.
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Jul 22, 2017 17:53:58 GMT -5
I've read, seen the evidence and heard the chatter. Most, if not all, scooters have much shorter life expectancy than even the cheapest motorcycle. Scooters are not cheap to maintain and need a lot to stay alive. i can't say much about longevity, but my scooter was relatively cheap to maintain dollar wise. but then again i'm beginning to wonder if i actually had a rebranded genuine honda engine. the only things i did to the engine was installed an iridium plug and adjusted the valves. the clutch shoes showed hardly any wear in 10,000 miles. i replaced the variator twice, once because of my screwup. the OEM rollers were garbage which destroyed the variator innards. i would definitely get another like it if i could. all in all, it was a pretty economical ride, everything i know about scooters i learned from it. |
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Post by w650 on Jul 22, 2017 22:50:52 GMT -5
I've read, seen the evidence and heard the chatter. Most, if not all, scooters have much shorter life expectancy than even the cheapest motorcycle. Scooters are not cheap to maintain and need a lot to stay alive.
but then again i'm beginning to wonder if i actually had a rebranded genuine honda engine.
the only things i did to the engine was installed an iridium plug and adjusted the valves.
the clutch shoes showed hardly any wear in 10,000 miles.
i replaced the variator twice, once because of my screwup.
the OEM rollers were garbage which destroyed the variator innards.
i would definitely get another like it if i could.
all in all, it was a pretty economical ride, everything i know about scooters i learned from it.
In 10,000 miles you had to at least replace the variator and probably the belt. I'm not talking about just 10,000 miles when I say longevity. I had one bike that did 125,000 on all original engine parts. Yes, tires and brakes but that was about it. It had shaft drive so no chain to take care of. It always cracks me up to hear Piaggio owners hawking 30,000 miles as an achievement. I have cars that topped 200,000 miles. Why is 30,000 miles even a thing? This is 2017. Scooters should go 30,000 miles on one belt, not need rollers or a clutch. Bikes go that far on chains and three times that far on a clutch. My 125,000 mile bike had the original clutch. |
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Post by oldchopperguy on Jul 22, 2017 23:16:20 GMT -5
I must agree with w650 about this being 2017, and ANY vehicle should last a L-O-N-G time... At LEAST 150K miles.
I think most 2-wheel riders in America simply do NOT put the miles on their bikes, as much as they do with their cars and trucks, so we may not really know just HOW long most will last. In other parts of the world, many scooter AND motorcycle riders use them as "family cars". I wish we had more members from Asia, India and other places where the family scooter gets HARD daily use... Often as a BUS or TRUCK... LOL! Obviously, we all have seen proof that a 150 scooter can pull a horse-cart with a dozen folks inside, and 5 or 6 riders ON the scooter... But HOW LONG will it last in THAT duty? Enquiring minds want to know...
I'm also intrigued by the growing numbers of automobiles using CVT trannies. Whew, WHAT are THOSE belts made of? Belting 30hp to a 400 pound scooter is one thing, but doing the same with a 250hp V6 to a 3,500 pound CAR is quite another.
I do realize from past experience, that it's difficult to plot a "norm" with vehicle longevity. Back it the old days, when American cars were deemed DOA at 50K or fewer miles, I drove a 1968 Cadillac (Coupe DeVille, 472cid motor) for over 400K miles with no more than normal maintenance! It still ran great with no oil or coolant use when I traded it in after many years of great service. On the other side of the coin, I bought a new 1971 AMC Hornet which absolutely FELL APART in 11K miles! And I had great service from other AMC cars... Go figger... All vehicles are better today than they were long ago, but in many ways, they are STILL a "crap shoot"... Yup... 
Ride 'em 'till they die...Leo I spent 55 years on "traditional" clutch n' gears big bikes and found maintenance to be not all that bad. Now, because of old age, arthritis and lack of funds, I'm firmly into scooters. Ah, I don't think mine will have to last all THAT long to outlast me. OH-KAY...  Leo (getting older by the day) in Texas
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Jul 23, 2017 12:01:43 GMT -5
In 10,000 miles you had to at least replace the variator and probably the belt. oh, i had to replace more than that, and i had to put a lot of labor into that scoot. i replaced the intake manifold at least 3 times. my pontiac montana has 232,000+ miles on it, i just replaced the OEM alternator a couple months ago. the oil is still an amber color when i do the scheduled oil changes, something i'm totally amazed at. i probably could have gotten at least 100,000 on my OEM clutch shoes, and i'm talking about a chinese ride. i don't see how a variator can operate without rollers (or "sliders"), although it seems we could use a "gear" type of roller to reduce wear. one of the redeeming qualities of the variator is its simplicity. making the variator more robust would mean increasing its complexity. the twist and go design is probably as simple as you can get and still be effective. i doubt if i'll ever own a "real" motorcycle, although i drool whenever i see one. it seems servicing a manual gearbox on a bike would be a real PITA compared to the variator/slip clutch design. but yeah, it's 2017, and we have the ability to machine parts to much closer tolerances than before. break in procedures are practically unheard of with todays automobile engines |
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Post by w650 on Jul 23, 2017 12:39:01 GMT -5
This is 2017. Scooters should go 30,000 miles on one belt, not need rollers or a clutch.
I should have written "New Rollers and clutch". I understand the Piaggio BV-350 has some kind of a clutch pack for longer life which explains its price. Still the design on scooters is years old. I remember a Rokon trail bike from the mid seventies with a CVT. Eventually Dual Clutch Transmissions will replace them. The European Honda Integra is a scooter/motorcycle with it and is doing well over there.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Jul 23, 2017 23:38:57 GMT -5
This is 2017. Scooters should go 30,000 miles on one belt, not need rollers or a clutch.
I should have written "New Rollers and clutch". I understand the Piaggio BV-350 has some kind of a clutch pack for longer life which explains its price. Still the design on scooters is years old. I remember a Rokon trail bike from the mid seventies with a CVT. Eventually Dual Clutch Transmissions will replace them. The European Honda Integra is a scooter/motorcycle with it and is doing well over there. You're not just whistlin' Dixie! Even though I lived in the late forties, until recently I didn't know just HOW old the CVT tranny really is. "American Pickers" often discover "barn find" scooters from the WWII era, and... Yes, they often have primitive CVT trannies! The cheaper ones usually have a centrifugal clutch, or even a "belt-tightening" clutch with single speed, but the CVT pioneers ARE out there! Amazing! |
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Post by cyborg55 on Jul 24, 2017 8:47:12 GMT -5
The "finger" style variator is the answer to the "roller" style variator,,,really expensive right now,,,but I'm sure prices will drop in the near future,,,as far as manual gearboxes being in need of regular service,,,I'm on my 60th bike and only one had a pop out of second problem when I got it because the previous owner bent a shifter fork,,,other than that it's been good so far with well over 500,000 miles under my belt
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Post by fugaziiv on Jul 24, 2017 11:40:43 GMT -5
The "finger" style variator is the answer to the "roller" style variator,,,really expensive right now,,,but I'm sure prices will drop in the near future,,,as far as manual gearboxes being in need of regular service,,,I'm on my 60th bike and only one had a pop out of second problem when I got it because the previous owner bent a shifter fork,,,other than that it's been good so far with well over 500,000 miles under my belt Finger style variators are indeed neat and work very well, but unless a certain manufacturer who retains the rights to this particular kind of setup changes their pricing and adjusts their distribution requirements, I don't think we'll be seeing widespread adoption of this product anytime soon in the US domestic market. Matt |
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Post by w650 on Jul 24, 2017 17:13:10 GMT -5
It will all become moot if Honda delivers a DCT to the sub 500cc class. Most scooter owners simply hate to shift. If Honda also puts a cargo hold where the gas tank should be, like on the NC 700, scooters will be a hard sell. A small bike that shifts itself and has a little carrying capacity will be the ticket for most riders. Imagine a 300cc Honda Integra at a 150cc Primavera price.
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Post by fugaziiv on Jul 25, 2017 8:22:40 GMT -5
It will all become moot if Honda delivers a DCT to the sub 500cc class. Most scooter owners simply hate to shift. If Honda also puts a cargo hold where the gas tank should be, like on the NC 700, scooters will be a hard sell. A small bike that shifts itself and has a little carrying capacity will be the ticket for most riders. Imagine a 300cc Honda Integra at a 150cc Primavera price. It certainly won't help the domestic scooter market anyway. Lucky for us scooter riders, a sub 500cc DCT from Honda would likely only be 9 grand OTD. lol You're right though, the DCTs are way cool and the way forward if costs come down. Matt |
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Post by w650 on Jul 25, 2017 14:57:23 GMT -5
I stated the problems already for large scooters here Matt. itistheride.boards.net/thread/10293/scooter-scene-2017?page=1&scrollTo=128888Let's face it. 1) Large scooters are disappearing fast in this market and 50cc scooters account for 65% of sales. Good for those selling small scooters but bad for the faithful who want to move up to something bigger. 2) As it is scooters only sell one for every ten motorcycles. Factor in 65% for 50cc and large scooters are scratching for crumbs. Vespa just celebrated their 70th anniversary. Yet in all that time they haven't moved scooters to the mainstream in America. It would seem that the Chinese with their cheap 50cc scoots have become a presence. |
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