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Post by geh3333 on Mar 16, 2015 0:25:31 GMT -5
The new koso is nearly 2mm longer from the inner face to the rear. The rear is the same length but the face sticks out further . check out previous pic.
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 16, 2015 0:50:27 GMT -5
Not even remotely the same design. And looks like at least 2 or more MM difference in width - a huge amount! Of course, if the boss was that much shorter it would all work out the same. Have you checked the boss length of the new vs old?
Either way,
either Koso completely changed their design for some reason
or
someone else manufactured the variator (maybe Koso outsourced it?).
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Post by geh3333 on Mar 16, 2015 1:43:33 GMT -5
Not even remotely the same design. And looks like at least 2 or more MM difference in width - a huge amount! Of course, if the boss was that much shorter it would all work out the same. Have you checked the boss length of the new vs old? Either way, either Koso completely changed their design for some reason or someone else manufactured the variator (maybe Koso outsourced it?). The boss doesn't come with the koso , I have to use my stock boss . check out the pic in the clutch thread. |
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Post by geh3333 on Mar 16, 2015 7:51:20 GMT -5
Not even remotely the same design. And looks like at least 2 or more MM difference in width - a huge amount! Of course, if the boss was that much shorter it would all work out the same. Have you checked the boss length of the new vs old? Either way, either Koso completely changed their design for some reason or someone else manufactured the variator (maybe Koso outsourced it?). The boss doesn't come with the koso , I have to use my stock boss . check out the pic in the clutch thread. I have 3 boss's , 2 from the 2 engines and one may have come with my koso 3 yrs ago , but I'm not sure . I do have 3 stock variators so there is a better Chance one came with a stock one I ordered when I first got the scoot . I actually don't think they ever came with the koso's |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 16, 2015 19:07:35 GMT -5
Some very interesting updates about el Cheapo vs. Dr Pulley. This first one about the boss and slide face. BOSSAmazingly, the boss on these things is NOT the same! I have three: the original OEM boss, one from the Dr. pulley kit, and one from el Cheapo. All three are the same diameter (24.04mm). But the LENGTH - which directly determines the distance between the 2 variator faces, are NOT the same: OEM ..............................50.98 mm Dr Pulley ........................50.91 mm el Cheapo .......................51.4 mm The longer the boss the farther apart the faces are. This means better low speed acceleration, but possibly less belt travel at high RPM (and thus less high speed). SLIDE FACEThe width of the three slide faces (the innermost part of the variator that covers the sliders or rollers) are all the same. However, the DIAMETER of the slide faces are all different. OEM .............................  .6 mm Dr Pulley .......................86.87 el Cheapo ......................87.32 The "fingers" of el Cheapo (the part the sliders or rollers press against to force the variator faces closed and make the belt ride high) stick out farther. This might be unimportant - if the smaller fingers already utilize the full ramp of the variator. However, that might NOT be the case and the larger el Cheapo design might lead to better top end performance since the fingers stick out farther toward the outer edge of the variator (and thus, potentially, make use of more of the ramps). Here are the 3:  The finger angle seems the same for all three. Here are two of them side by side. The el Chepao has the same 'ridge' at the base, where the sliders or rollers would sit at low RPM. This is the same as the dr pulley had - leading (in my opinion) to the destruction of the sliders in about 500 miles (it's now ground off the dr pulley glide face, but i have not tried to use it yet:  |
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Post by geh3333 on Mar 16, 2015 20:43:01 GMT -5
That's the first time I saw a different length boss. The boss on the el cheapo is probably longest due to the wider variator "just like the koso " . At least the el cheapo gives you the longer boss ! I'd do some tests with the different back plates, and see if you get any higher climb out of one of them .
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 16, 2015 21:38:38 GMT -5
That's the first time I saw a different length boss. The boss on the el cheapo is probably longest due to the wider variator "just like the koso " . At least the el cheapo gives you the longer boss ! I'd do some tests with the different back plates, and see if you get any higher climb out of one of them . This is getting done, geh, thanks to you and your interest in comparing variators. I have not seen - anywhere - anyone actually take a good look at what we are using. It seems the only 'variatopr analysis' is a subjective one: "I think this XYZ brand gives me better top speed", or "better acceleration", etc. Anyway - I'll get into the rest of what I found tomorrow, what you said about the "wider variator" isn't true with these three. All exactly the same. More info tomorrow on this. Have weights, dimensions, etc. - all for you since you are so detail oriented! |
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Post by geh3333 on Mar 16, 2015 22:19:05 GMT -5
That's the first time I saw a different length boss. The boss on the el cheapo is probably longest due to the wider variator "just like the koso " . At least the el cheapo gives you the longer boss ! I'd do some tests with the different back plates, and see if you get any higher climb out of one of them . This is getting done, geh, thanks to you and your interest in comparing variators. I have not seen - anywhere - anyone actually take a good look at what we are using. It seems the only 'variatopr analysis' is a subjective one: "I think this XYZ brand gives me better top speed", or "better acceleration", etc. Anyway - I'll get into the rest of what I found tomorrow, what you said about the "wider variator" isn't true with these three. All exactly the same. More info tomorrow on this. Have weights, dimensions, etc. - all for you since you are so detail oriented! Did you see how I measured the center of the 2 Koso's ? From front to back , where the boss goes. Are you saying they are all the same ? When it comes to width , that's what I'm talking about . you may have understood me , I'm just trying to get a good picture of all of these variators. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 17, 2015 9:35:37 GMT -5
Moving on to the OUTER DRIVE FACEI have two - one from the OEM setup and the other from the Dr Pulley kit. Here are the two side by side:  Much larger cooling fins on the OEM face. However, this comes at the expense of weight: OEM ...................... 170 grams Dr Pulley ............... 142 grams Here is a photo of the faces of the two:  Notice TWO important differences: 1. The Dr Pulley face allows the belt to ride much closer to the hub. The OEM face has a 'flat section" milled onto the face - 7.9 mm of unusable area right next to the hub. The Dr Pulley design has it's curved, usable surface milled much closer to the hub. The belt is thus allowed to work on a smaller diameter, giving better low end performance. 2. The Dr. Pulley face has a 1mm "lip" causing it to stand off that much further from the inner drive face. This ALSO causes the belt to run lower in between the faces. However, the same could be accomplished with a washer with the OEM design. It isn't known if the dr Pulley variatior ramp design somehow makes up for this extra 1 mm separation at HIGH speeds. The thickness of the faces - from the point where they touch the inner drive face, on one side (INCLUDING the lip) to where the nut contacts the face on the other side, are identical: OEM ................... 8.7 mm Dr Pulley ............ 8.7 mm |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 17, 2015 22:08:52 GMT -5
This is getting done, geh, thanks to you and your interest in comparing variators. I have not seen - anywhere - anyone actually take a good look at what we are using. It seems the only 'variatopr analysis' is a subjective one: "I think this XYZ brand gives me better top speed", or "better acceleration", etc. Anyway - I'll get into the rest of what I found tomorrow, what you said about the "wider variator" isn't true with these three. All exactly the same. More info tomorrow on this. Have weights, dimensions, etc. - all for you since you are so detail oriented! Did you see how I measured the center of the 2 Koso's ? From front to back , where the boss goes. Are you saying they are all the same ? When it comes to width , that's what I'm talking about . you may have understood me , I'm just trying to get a good picture of all of these variators. SOME VERY INTERESTING MEASUREMENTS, I THINK. Here is a diagram so we are all talking about the same things:  So here are the comparisons ................................................... OEM....................... Dr. Pulley ............... el Cheapo1. Overall sizes E: Diameter .......................... 107.4mm ................. 114.7mm .............. 115.2mm H: Thickness ......................... 35.7mm .................. 35.6mm .............. 35.7mm D: Boss diameter ................. 24mm .......................24mm ................ 24mm The thickness of all three is the same. 2. Belt Travel DistanceOne of the most important things is the overall distance on the face of the variator over which the belt can travel. Of course this is influenced by the overall size of the variator (107mm or 115mm). But it's also changed by the two 'dead zones' - one at the center of the variator (belt cannot drop lower than this) and one at the edge of the variator (belt cannot rise higher than this). Here are the interesting results: ................................................... OEM...................... Dr. Pulley ............... el CheapoC: Inner Dead Zone .................. 4.14mm ................. 3.76mm .................. 4.57mm A: Outer Dead Zone .................. 3.96mm ................. 3.56mm .................. 5.94mm Thus, the USABLE BELT TRAVEL DISTANCE IS (each side): B: ...........................................35.13mm ................39.54mm ............... 36.77mm
The USABLE belt distance of the 115mm el Cheapo is only slightly better than the smaller, 107mm OEM variator !!!!!!!! 3. RAMP SIZEThe depth of the ramps (at the hub) are not all the same, and the "length" of the ramp (distance from hub to outer extremity of the ramp are also not the same. The depth depends on how thin the variator is at the hub. The lengthdepends on how thin the VERTICAL EDGE is on at the outer edge of the ramp. A deeper ramp (at the hub) allows for more dramatic movement of the sliders/rollers. The length of the ramp does the same. So here are the measurements: ................................................... OEM....................... Dr. Pulley ............... el CheapoG: Ramp Depth (at hub) ........... 30.2mm .................. 29.37mm ................ 28.58mm I: Ramp length (hub to edge) .... 26.99mm ................. 31.57mm ................ 29.27mm The OEM has a nice, deep cut ramp - but of course it's short (since the thing is only 107mm diameter). el Cheapo is both cut not as deep and is not as long (because the side wall of the variator is thicker). It's a loser on BOTH counts. 4. VARIATOR WEIGHTSupposedly a lighter variator is better because it takes less power to s;pin it up (like a lighter flywheel). I have my doubts this is really anything you could even measure. Pulling an ounce out of the variator - will do what? Anyway, here are the measurements, thanks to tghe scale at the local Postal Annex: ................................................... OEM....................... Dr. Pulley ............... el CheapoWeight (grams) .......................... 300gr ...................... 283gr ...................... 275grOn the basis of weight, el Cheapo does well, despite being thicker at the ramp start and at the side wall. Maybe a lighter alloy? Maybe a lighter sheave inside the hub? Anyway, my belief is it does not much matter. +++++++++++++++++ Anyway, there is the detailed comparison. Thanks, geh, for the motivation to look into this. It's odd we all have been flying blind about variators for so long. So, this is a start. Maybe others can add to the library so we can know what is really good or bad. |
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Post by JerryScript on Mar 18, 2015 12:02:43 GMT -5
The outer deadzone is determined by the balance of weights and springs, you can get more out of it with the appropriate tuning.
The inner deadzone is determined by the boss, you can mod it a bit, but I never had, so I'll let others talk to that.
The ramp angle is an important measurement, it affects the timing of RPM changes as much as balancing weights and belts will.
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 18, 2015 12:58:53 GMT -5
The outer deadzone is determined by the balance of weights and springs, you can get more out of it with the appropriate tuning. The inner deadzone is determined by the boss, you can mod it a bit, but I never had, so I'll let others talk to that. The ramp angle is an important measurement, it affects the timing of RPM changes as much as balancing weights and belts will. Yeah - thats why I tested them all out under the same conditions - for a fair comparison. All the same weights, etc. Same boss. Face angle was identical on all three. Ramp angle obviously was not, since they were different depths at the start and different lengths. Jerry - I thought it would be helpful to start a "list" that all who are interested could post to. In time we could jointly build a pretty decent library of variator specs so we all could know what we are really getting. If you have been following GEH's comments about the last 3 "Koso" variators he has purchased, and how they are not the same, this (I think) would be a good benefit to all - one that (to my knowledge) does not exist anywhere. but the part I can't figure out is this: You would want a real LIST, not a series of 50 or 100 separate comments. Someone measures up their variator and wants to add it to the list, they log on and add another line to what's already there. But how could you set up something that EVERYONE could add to. Normally you can only "edit" your own comments. What do you think? Does that sound useful? If so, is there a way to do it? |
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Post by scooter on Mar 18, 2015 15:43:55 GMT -5
Did you see how I measured the center of the 2 Koso's ? From front to back , where the boss goes. Are you saying they are all the same ? When it comes to width , that's what I'm talking about . you may have understood me , I'm just trying to get a good picture of all of these variators. SOME VERY INTERESTING MEASUREMENTS, I THINK. Here is a diagram so we are all talking about the same things: So here are the comparisons ................................................... OEM....................... Dr. Pulley ............... el Cheapo1. Overall sizes E: Diameter .......................... 107.4mm ................. 114.7mm .............. 115.2mm H: Thickness ......................... 35.7mm .................. 35.6mm .............. 35.7mm D: Boss diameter ................. 24mm .......................24mm ................ 24mm The thickness of all three is the same. 2. Belt Travel DistanceOne of the most important things is the overall distance on the face of the variator over which the belt can travel. Of course this is influenced by the overall size of the variator (107mm or 115mm). But it's also changed by the two 'dead zones' - one at the center of the variator (belt cannot drop lower than this) and one at the edge of the variator (belt cannot rise higher than this). Here are the interesting results: ................................................... OEM...................... Dr. Pulley ............... el CheapoC: Inner Dead Zone .................. 4.14mm ................. 3.76mm .................. 4.57mm A: Outer Dead Zone .................. 3.96mm ................. 3.56mm .................. 5.94mm Thus, the USABLE BELT TRAVEL DISTANCE IS (each side): B: ...........................................35.13mm ................39.54mm ............... 36.77mm
This is important because it gives you the most "gears" when the usable distance is longer. This can be used to give you more low end or more high end.
The USABLE belt distance of the 115mm el Cheapo is only slightly better than the smaller, 107mm OEM variator !!!!!!!! The thing here is the diameter. Getting the belt out to 115mm will give you more top end speed than the 107.
107 - 3.96*2=99.08 and
115 - 5.94*2=103.12.
If you shave the face of the boss or sheave a little, you could go all the way out to the edge, and if you put in shims, you could go all the way down until your belt hit the boss. These are extremes of course and not desirable. For top speed, IF your motor can push it, the oem is inferior, the el cheapo is much better, and the DP wins over the EC.
We already know the DP and the EC can give more top end. Without cutting or shimming, we see the DP has the smallest lower end dead zone, BUT what we really need to know is the diameter where the inner dead zone begins. The smallest diameter will give us the lowest starting "gear".3. RAMP SIZEThe depth of the ramps (at the hub) are not all the same, and the "length" of the ramp (distance from hub to outer extremity of the ramp are also not the same. The depth depends on how thin the variator is at the hub. The lengthdepends on how thin the VERTICAL EDGE is on at the outer edge of the ramp. A deeper ramp (at the hub) allows for more dramatic movement of the sliders/rollers. The length of the ramp does the same. So here are the measurements: ................................................... OEM....................... Dr. Pulley ............... el CheapoG: Ramp Depth (at hub) ........... 30.2mm .................. 29.37mm ................ 28.58mm I: Ramp length (hub to edge) .... 26.99mm ................. 31.57mm ................ 29.27mm The OEM has a nice, deep cut ramp - but of course it's short (since the thing is only 107mm diameter). el Cheapo is both cut not as deep and is not as long (because the side wall of the variator is thicker). It's a loser on BOTH counts. This is where it gets complicated. This is a calculus problem. We need to know the rpm at any given point on the pulley face. You have w weight at x diameter traveling at y rpm on z ramp angle, but that only tells us how much force the rollers will exert on the movable pulley. What also matters is what the engine needs, and what you want. It needs the belt to rise when it reaches the rpm that you decide it needs to move at, at any given speed, on a given road incline, and the way you want it to.
In my case, I wanted my engine to accelerate at 6,500 rpm when at WOT and to attain 7,500 rpm, with the belt all the way out, on level ground. If the ramp is too steep then the pulley will start to open at cruising rpm, resulting in high rpm cruising. If it is shallow then it may make the pulley close too soon as you take off, bringing your rpms to below what you want, resulting in poor acceleration.
The perfect variator would give you whatever rpm you want, at any speed, and also the maximum top end that your motor can pull at max HP, and a low cruising rpm. In other words it would be electronically controlled and adjustable on the fly for various driving styles and road conditions. The next best thing is a variator ramp that is tuned to your engine, bike, weight, and driving style.4. VARIATOR WEIGHTI'm with you on this. It's probably not a big deal.
Also don't forget that your back plate also has a width and a ramp angle which will affect performance. The rollers will be riding on the two ramps.
This also brings up sliders whose dimensions change depending on what angle they are at. That's a big deal and makes the math more intense.Anyway, there is the detailed comparison. Thanks, geh, for the motivation to look into this. It's odd we all have been flying blind about variators for so long. So, this is a start. Maybe others can add to the library so we can know what is really good or bad. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 18, 2015 16:07:33 GMT -5
Good comments.
This was to be a comparison of the different variators out there, to help some day in selecting new ones ... which are good, which not so good, and why. There are lots of writeups about how to TUNE the thing after you have already bought one, but only anecdotal comments on which is "best".
I hoped this would become a sort of library - with people adding lines as they measure their own variators. Then we all could buy smart.
About tuning:
Though there are lots of write ups about tuning, I have not found any that are very good. Maybe the authors skip too much, or maybe they actually don't understand all that well what they are doing. It occurs to me YOU could write a GREAT step-by-step everyone could understand and follow to get the most out of their engine. It would be a really good long-term way of 'giving back'. Maybe think about it?
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Post by geh3333 on Mar 18, 2015 18:44:48 GMT -5
Good comments. This was to be a comparison of the different variators out there, to help some day in selecting new ones ... which are good, which not so good, and why. There are lots of writeups about how to TUNE the thing after you have already bought one, but only anecdotal comments on which is "best". I hoped this would become a sort of library - with people adding lines as they measure their own variators. Then we all could buy smart. About tuning: Though there are lots of write ups about tuning, I have not found any that are very good. Maybe the authors skip too much, or maybe they actually don't understand all that well what they are doing. It occurs to me YOU could write a GREAT step-by-step everyone could understand and follow to get the most out of their engine. It would be a really good long-term way of 'giving back'. Maybe think about it? Very good info rcq. When you measured the variator weight , what all did you weigh? Did you only weigh the variator or the whole assembly together ? |
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