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Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 30, 2014 0:13:11 GMT -5
Yup... For the old-school clutch n' gears biker, there's ALWAYS something new to learn about the CVT scooter tranny...
After 7 years of riding the old Chinese 150, without incident, last night I was shopping at Wally World on "Minnie Mouse" (my "new" old Kymco 250). The engine had become stone-cold during shopping, so as I usually do, I started the motor to let it warm up on the center-stand while loading a considerable "tonnage" of vittles in my new "jumbo" sized trunk...
Well, the 250 when fully cooled down likes to fast idle at about 3,500 rpm for a few minutes until settling down. This fully-engages the clutch, turning the rear wheel at around 10mph. As I happily filled the cavernous top-box, unnoticed by me, it got HEAVY, pushing the rear tire onto the tarmac...
LO not so L...
Old Minnie leaped forward, the center-stand began to fold, and my hoss was almost "over the hump" to where the stand would fold, and Minnie would be heading home without me...
There I was, in a Herculean tug-of-war with the old Kymco, pulling for all I was worth, with Minnie being a more-than-worthy opponent... Of course, the harder I pulled back, the more I dug the tire onto Wally's parking lot. I had almost lost the battle, envisioning the scoot leisurely cruising into the side of a new Lexus just yards away, when the light-bulb went on over my head, saying: "Just LIFT the doggone thing UP so the tire is free of the ground..." Duh... Amazing how common-sense goes out the window in a panic situation! Incidentally, criminals... robbers, muggers, thugs, etc. DEPEND on that phenomenon.
Presto! A pound or so of "lift" on the trunk, a gentle pull backwards, and the tire was free, and the scooter rocked solidly BACK over the hump, onto the center-stand... And the engine slowed to normal idle...
So, LESSON LEARNED. A simple act of loading a second gallon of milk at fast-idle ALMOST ruined my scooter, and could have done $20-grand damage to a lovely new car.
Now, I'm ONLY admitting to doing something THAT stupid, to prevent some other scooter-jockey from doing something THAT stupid... Oh yeah, you all KNOW that most have done something THAT elementary mindless at one time or another... LOL!
When you're driving ANY vehicle, better keep your mind on what you're doing!
Ride safe, and take care filling the trunk at fast-idle!
Leo in Texas
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Post by alleyoop on Mar 30, 2014 0:31:50 GMT -5
Have to tell you Bro, the idle and carb are not set right. It should not idle that high on cold starts.
Alleyoop
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Post by shalomdawg on Mar 30, 2014 1:28:18 GMT -5
howdy and glad you are ok. it's easy to hurt yerself in those situations.
lotsa miles and smiles to ye
ken
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Post by ramblinman on Mar 30, 2014 3:58:25 GMT -5
Have to tell you Bro, the idle and carb are not set right. It should not idle that high on cold starts. Alleyoop my new 150 idles between 2,000-2500rpms on cold starts with the tire moving. slows to about 1600rpms usually within 15 seconds and tire stops. i assumed that was normal.  hey Leo, good to hear nothing bad happened. i didn't have that problem on my atm50 because the clutch doesn't engage until 5,000rpms. but now that scenario has been in the back of my mind every time i start my new scoot on the center stand. |
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Post by DaveC on Mar 30, 2014 7:53:43 GMT -5
Great info
I'm lucky, I put mine in Neutral and set the 'parking' brake.
But I've got all 3 wheels on the ground all the time (except on some corners going too fast)
But, still good info
Glad you recovered it in time
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Post by rockynv on Mar 30, 2014 8:10:01 GMT -5
Lesson learned - Don't start a scooter and leave the controls unattended.. I know it's more convenient to do something else while the engine is warming up however at best that something should be putting on your helmet and gloves while your standing where you can hit the brakes or kill switch if need be. If warm-ups are a problem a ball end tent bungie wrapped around the rear brake handle and hand grip a few times can mitigate an accidental runaway like that.
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Post by nulldevice on Mar 30, 2014 9:39:45 GMT -5
What alleyoop said.
I have had chinoscooters for six or seven years, from 50cc to 250cc and played around changing carburetors as well. All of them idled at a consistant speed when adjusted correctly. Hot or cold engine, hot or cold weather, it didn't matter. The idle speed stayed below clutch engagement speeds.
You need to check the valve clearance and the intake for leaks and then get the carb checked/cleaned and adjusted right.
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Post by JerryScript on Mar 30, 2014 9:39:50 GMT -5
The only scratches on my scooter were caused by me soon after I first bought it. I was showing it to a friend, started it up, pulled it down off the center stand, and then twisted the throttle in an attempt to show how well I had it tuned. Instead, my friend watched as it ran into the wall at work.
Glad to hear you are ok and didn't cause any damage to yourself, your scooter, or that car!
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Post by spandi on Mar 30, 2014 10:43:35 GMT -5
Jeez Leo, glad neither Minnie or you were hurt! Gotta agree with the folks here. Get the nice folks a your dealership to give the idle the once-over, and and crank it AFTER you're "in" the scoot. We want both you and Minnie to stay in "vintage" condition!  |
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Post by larrball on Mar 30, 2014 12:31:13 GMT -5
Glad you'r O.K leo.
Look at it in the Bright light, you made it past the Wally's Wounder Land's Check-out line alive and well and that's 3/4 the battle.
He-he
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Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 30, 2014 14:03:16 GMT -5
Well... a little "focus" when starting the scoot will eliminate the "duh factor"... LOL! Old habits from fifty years ago with clutch n' gears cycles still creep in.
The scooter has a fresh tune-up, and runs SO perfectly that I hesitate to mess with it. It starts so quickly that it's running before the starter makes a full revolution. The performance is marvelous, from idle to over 75mph. The gas mileage is near 90mpg. The plug shows perfect "tan". I've spent enough time around the dealership to have watched most all the various Kymco scooters being test-ridden, and aside from the newer fuel-injected ones, they all idle fast for 2 minutes or so, with the rear wheel spinning quite fast, like mine.
As soon as the thermostat opens, the idle drops to a demure "putt-putt". Even on my old carbureted '07, the whole engine is "black-boxed" being computer-controlled. My 1995 Honda car acts similarly, though fuel-injected, fast-idling when stone-cold at over 3,000 rpm. After a couple of minutes, it slows to 1,300rpm.
From watching the older Kymcos at the dealership, mine seems to be quite "normal". The Grandvista/Grand Dink, Bet n' Win and all those early, weirdly named carbureted 250's seem to fast-idle above 3,000rpm when first started. Once ridden, unless it's COLD outside like it was the other day, the engine idles normally upon starting.
The instructions say to go ahead and ride without warm-up, avoiding hard acceleration until warm (my Honda car manual says the same) which seems "abusive" to my old-school mentality. But... my Honda has nearly 200K trouble-free miles, and the Kymco has nearly 15,000 trouble-free miles. So... I guess today's metals, and clearances are durable enough to handle initial driving on a cold engine.
I notice with my Honda car, when shifting into "drive" or "reverse" at the fast 3,000rpm idle, there is a gentle buffer phenomenon that eliminates "slamming" into gear. With the scooter, the manual instructs you to hold the rear brake as you roll off the stand... Pretty good idea! So the factory definitely expects it to be cold-idling fast enough to take off.
The only problem I can see would be to roll off the center-stand and then sit still, frying the clutch. The manual also mentions this in broken English... From my experience, I think these older, water-cooled, carbureted Kymcos just idle pretty fast when fully-cooled off. It never was a problem until I loaded the new, monster-sized trunk... Duh...
Even then, all it takes is a gentle lift to keep the rear tire off the ground... Double-duh... It's just a phenomenon common to CVT trannies. I remember my old Xingyue 150 idling around 3,000 rpm when cold too. However, it had so little torque that touching the spinning tire to the ground simply stopped the wheel, so that was not a problem. The Kymco idles about the same, but has 19hp as opposed to the 150's 9hp. (That's as much horsepower as our old 500cc cycles of the 1950's.) Just enough difference to make "Minnie" a little "friskier"... Oh well, some gals just have a mind of their own... LOL!
My clutch engages at a very low rpm too, possibly because of age weakening the springs a little. But the clutch is so smooth, and performance so good over the entire rpm range, I can't see any reason to change anything. "If it ain't broke, I don't fix it..." I had MORE than enough of fixing with the old Chinese 150... I'm mighty happy with the scooter "as-is" so unless it acts up, I don't think I'll make any changes. I just got too-big a trunk! Nah... Can't be TOO big!
Leo in Texas
PS: I also must mention that the idle-rpm I noted may not be absolutely correct. The "bar-graph" digital tach on the Grandvista is "marginal" at best, and can be easily misread by nearly 1,000rpm. The digital dash on the GV is impressive, but I wish Kymco would have used their VERY easy-to-read analog dash from the GV 125 and 150 on the "upgraded" 250. Sometimes, "nicer" is not always "better"...
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Post by rockinez on Mar 30, 2014 14:15:36 GMT -5
A strip of Velcro (like the cable tie type) could be handy to hold down the brake in this situation.
I may give it a try, as I do warm up my scoot as I load it also.
Thanks for the warning.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 30, 2014 14:22:19 GMT -5
A strip of Velcro (like the cable tie type) could be handy to hold down the brake in this situation. I may give it a try, as I do warm up my scoot as I load it also. Thanks for the warning. Rockinez, I wouldn't recommend that... Holding the rear brake at fast-idle may well wear your clutch shoes, and overheat the clutch. It doesn't take much slipping to REALLY heat things up! Sincerely, Leo |
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Post by rockinez on Mar 30, 2014 14:29:15 GMT -5
So the safe thing is load first, then start the sucker up.
Easier plan, no strap to take with me.
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Post by alleyoop on Mar 30, 2014 20:26:55 GMT -5
Just an F.Y.I cold starts should raise your rpms LESS than 1000 rpms from your set idle usually 500-700 rpms higher than your set IDLE. At that setting your Rear Wheel should NOT spin. For a Normal CVT setup the clutch will usually engage around 2500 rpms. If starting it cold it IDLES so high that the wheel is spinning at a pretty good clip that tells me it is running LEAN off the pilot jet. As far as the checking the plug for color that is very deciptive because it all depends how the test was done and when. The plug color will change from low to high throttle position I go by the sound of the motor the way it is running and RPMS.
Now a Tach Is very important it is your crystal ball, the RPM gauge it does not matter if it is off or not you should know how the motor runs and the speed when the tach is registering at a certain number. If you know this then the tach becomes your fortune cookie, it will tell you if something is not right and going south.
But all one can do is bring a problem to the front, what someone does with it is their choice.
And what is this the Clutch engages at 5000 RPMS!! WOW!! Talk about sling shots.
Alleyoop
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
