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Post by alleyoop on Feb 20, 2013 23:35:05 GMT -5
have always been getting Kickbacks when I start my Trike with the performance CDIs. More so after the 62mm BBK and 2+2 Stroker Crank due to the high compression, It sounds nasty like the Starter Clutch gears or Starter Gears are going to break. I experimented with the 5 different performance CDI's that I have and they all caused Kickbacks then I put on the OEM Standard CDI which DOES NOT have advanced timing and NO KICKBACK. So now I knew the FIXED ADVANCED TIMING was causing the KickBacks. So I googled for a CDI that would be retarded at low rpms and advance the timing as your RPMS RISE. Well I found one that sounded promising and was going to order it and try it out. I First asked JOHN our TVANCMAN if he had one or if he could get me one. He said yes which one did I want and sent me a list and pictures which had a short description. I told him I wanted the GY6 AC Advancing Angle Performance CDI. Well John got the shipment in and sent me the CDI, I immediately put it on. Well It is FANTASTIC!! I hit the start button and it immediately Fired up NO KICKBACK and get this it IDLED at 1100rpms!! I had to raise the Idle to 1500rpms. The sucker idles really smooth I go by the MIRRORS if they Vibrate or not(HAHA). I naturally pulled the trike out and cranked a little just around my neighborhood It was cold and windy and I did not bother to put on my helmet or jacket just in my short sleeve shirt. It is GREAT!! Just what I was hoping for here is what it looks like: Alleyoop This is the CDI I bought that is retarded for start up and advances the timing as your rpms rise.  |
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Post by JerryScript on Oct 2, 2013 12:38:06 GMT -5
Curious how this worked out in the long run? I'm planning on buying one soon if you still think it's great.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 12:43:39 GMT -5
Kick back??
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Post by JerryScript on Oct 2, 2013 23:40:07 GMT -5
As I keep pointing out, I'm the newbie here, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong: Kickback refers to the advanced timing causing the plug to fire before the piston has reached top dead center while starting. Once started, advanced ignition can actually be good due to the high RPMs, so think of the explosion happening while the piston is topping out, not when it is at the exact top. The actual explosion occurs not at a single point in the rotation due to the high RPMs, but throughout a range of 3-6 degrees before and after TDC. If your CDI is normal, it will fire at TDC, which actually wastes a bit of the energy due to the high RPMs causing the piston to be further along the rotation. Advanced ignition can also help with cleaner burns due to an increase in compression (with the explosion itself being momentarily compressed). When starting, this advanced spark ignition can be a problem, since the RPMs are not high enough for centrifugal force to continue rotation. So the piston is "kicked back" in the opposite direction. This can cause rough starts, or no starting at all without a heavy duty battery and starter. So the idea behind this CDI is that at low RPMs (with less centrifugal force being generated), the ignition timing is not advanced (or is just a bit). As the RPMs increase, the ignition timing become more advanced, giving you better performance. Think of playing tether ball. When you slap the ball late, you don't get much power out of your hit. If you slap the ball as it's approaching and passing your body, you get much more power. Same is true for the piston. If the explosion occurs at or a bit after TDC, alot of the power is wasted. If the explosion occurs just before TDC, the explosion is compressed, allowing for a more powerful and complete ignition, and giving you more power. |
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Post by yelloscoot on Oct 3, 2013 0:51:11 GMT -5
Alleyoop,..Thanks for the thread and the info. I'll be following this thread also.
Jerry,... you may call yourself a newbie, but, your explanation makes a lot of sense to me. It helped me to wrap the concept of a performance CDI around my brain a little more.
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Post by tvnacman on Oct 3, 2013 1:11:19 GMT -5
Here is the deal guys my main thing is feedback .I had made statements about this cdi . It will apply if you have a timing light . If what I state is untrue I will take the cdi back and refund the cost . I have tested the product it acts as stated . I don't mean 6 months, I mean like 2 weeks .
John
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Post by alleyoop on Oct 3, 2013 1:23:11 GMT -5
Jerry explained what can happen with to much advance timing during starts and he is correct. Just want to add that some of the valve systems have a cam stopper so that a motor will NOT start backwards. I have added a picture of it, that parts goes on the opposite side of the cam sprocket. Now due to what Jerry said about not having enough force to have the crank turn due to either high compression and or to advanced. The Nasty Noise that we call KICKBACKS that sound like a chain dragging on metal is Actually the Starter Clutch. It is being turned by the starter and what you hear is the teeth slipping around the crank teeth because it cannot hold . Here is the Cam Stopper: Alleyoop  |
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Post by JerryScript on Oct 3, 2013 1:39:23 GMT -5
Thanks alleyoop, and thanks for all the help in PMs tvnacman, excellent service before the sale! I'm doing my upgrades a bit every paycheck, which lets me test the effects of each one. Keihin carb was first, BBK was second, then jetting and roller weights, and now ignition system is next on my list, after that it's on to the clutch and gears. I'm ordering one of these tomorrow, along with a performance coil and wire, can't wait to try it out.
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Post by JerryScript on Oct 8, 2013 17:28:20 GMT -5
Got the CDI and coil/wire today. Only issue was with the post office not delivering it to my house, even though their tracking system listed it as delivered. Had to call the post office and talk to the supervisor, who found it right away, but didn't know why it wasn't delivered? Oh well, it's here and tvnacman told me no matter what he would fix the issue with delivery, will definitely purchase from him again!
This CDI is twice as big as my stock one, which made it a bit difficult to install. My scooter has the CDI in the battery compartment, with little plastic tabs holding everything in position. I had to break those plastic tabs out in order to get everything to fit. I used pieces of rubber between all components to insulate them from each other for safety and to prevent vibration wear.
Once I had it all installed, I fired her up, and there was ZERO clutch grind (kickback). I twisted the throttle, and the engine went up and down beautifully. I took her out for a quick test ride, and it definitely made a difference! I had a slight bog during takeoff on the stock CDI that I couldn't fix with carb adjustments. No bog now, and she went through the entire acceleration range smoother, enough to be noticeable, and I gained about 2-3mph top end. IMO, money well spent, and I can keep my stock CDI and coil/wire for emergency backup parts.
Thanks again to alleyoop and tvnacman for doing the research to find this, IMHO superior, CDI!
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Post by alleyoop on Oct 8, 2013 17:44:42 GMT -5
FANTASTIC JERRY, Win Win Baby, I have that CDI on now for over a year and works like a charm. When I Originally ordered it and put it on and tested it out I emailed JOHN and bought another one I have it hanging on my TRIKE PARTS board in my garage.  Alleyoop |
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Post by kevbailey on Apr 18, 2014 10:57:25 GMT -5
I know this is an old thread, but I ran across it a few days ago, and realized that I had been experiencing the same issue, but just didn't think about what was causing it. I have 2 scoots, basically identical. one has a OEM CDI, and my daily driver has one of those orange performance non-adjustable advance cdi's. That scoot does not like starting when it's cold. Runs great once it starts, but at 50degrees or colder, it's not a happy scoot when I try to wake it up! My other scoot fires up without any hesitation at all times.
I purchased one of these from tvnacman's company yesterday, so I am anxious to get it and see the difference.
KB
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Post by skuttadawg on Apr 18, 2014 11:19:22 GMT -5
I rode a Honda XR 350 that was a thumper with a compression release valve aka Jake Brake . Well the cable broke so I had to " man kick " it and it threw me over the side from a compression kick back .
I put a blue CDI from PFS on my 2T and have not had any issues on starting or running . Yes it has advanced timing and a 4T is a diff monster than a 2T
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Post by tvnacman on Apr 18, 2014 15:21:36 GMT -5
I know this is an old thread, but I ran across it a few days ago, and realized that I had been experiencing the same issue, but just didn't think about what was causing it. I have 2 scoots, basically identical. one has a OEM CDI, and my daily driver has one of those orange performance non-adjustable advance cdi's. That scoot does not like starting when it's cold. Runs great once it starts, but at 50degrees or colder, it's not a happy scoot when I try to wake it up! My other scoot fires up without any hesitation at all times. I purchased one of these from tvnacman's company yesterday, so I am anxious to get it and see the difference. KB A larger pilot jet in the cold weather . My engine was a bear to start around 45 degrees . I have stock engine with pod filter the same cdi you ordered and free flow performance muffler . I put in a larger pilot jet , it starts nice . Below 35 degrees it may not start with the electric , but starts by the 3rd or 4th kick . Kevin have you adjusted your valves ? John |
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Post by tvnacman on Apr 18, 2014 15:21:52 GMT -5
I know this is an old thread, but I ran across it a few days ago, and realized that I had been experiencing the same issue, but just didn't think about what was causing it. I have 2 scoots, basically identical. one has a OEM CDI, and my daily driver has one of those orange performance non-adjustable advance cdi's. That scoot does not like starting when it's cold. Runs great once it starts, but at 50degrees or colder, it's not a happy scoot when I try to wake it up! My other scoot fires up without any hesitation at all times. I purchased one of these from tvnacman's company yesterday, so I am anxious to get it and see the difference. KB A larger pilot jet in the cold weather . My engine was a bear to start around 45 degrees . I have stock engine with pod filter the same cdi you ordered and free flow performance muffler . I put in a larger pilot jet , it starts nice . Below 35 degrees it may not start with the electric , but starts by the 3rd or 4th kick . Kevin have you adjusted your valves ? John |
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Post by kevbailey on Apr 18, 2014 23:45:40 GMT -5
Yes I did adjust them, and it took care of my stalling issue when cold. It just seems, now, that the timing is simply too advanced for starting when it's cold out, and we don't even get THAT cold here.
I can run my patio heater for 10-15 minutes next to the bike, and it starts up much easier. If it's over 65, it starts almost as soon as I hit the button.
When I put the OEM CDI on, it has no starting issues at all, but it does lack performance.
Note: When I say hard to start, I mean it takes 6 or 7 revolutions, and it sounds as if the starter is laboring. I'm not struggling with it for several minutes.
I have not done anything with the Jets. I've been happy with the performance of the engine, and I haven't felt the need to change them out, but it's certainly something I'll look into.
I do have a feeling, however, that the CDI will address the starting issue, as it makes sense.
KB
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
