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Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 14, 2013 21:41:55 GMT -5
Need advice...
In a previous thread, I related my rear-disk brake stopped working, with the lefthand brake lever going limp. Inspection showed the master cylinder was very bad, and appeared to be allowing the brake fluid to pass around the piston, providing virtually no pressure on the rear caliper.
Well, today my new master-cylinder/lever/stoplight switch arrived and I got it installed.
I opened the bleed-valve on the rear caliper and filled the new master-cylinder with fluid. I began to gently pump the brake lever until all the old fluid was flushed from the line, and clear, new fluid was coming out.
I closed the bleed-valve and expected brakes. WRONG!
The lever just goes to the handlebar with NO hydraulic resistance or brake activation at all.
I've never serviced hydraulic brakes, so I'm not sure what to expect, but... when flushing out the old fluid, and filling the line, the fluid coming out of the bleed-valve on the caliper was only a "trickle"... I would think every pump of the lever would produce a strong "squirt".
At this point, the new master-cylinder reservoir is full. There's clean fluid coming out of the caliper bleed-valve. The valve has been closed and all should be "go". BUT... The brake lever just closes with NO hydraulic pressure at all.
Any hints are appreciated!
What's the likelyhood of my new master-cylinder being bad? I don't think so, as there's no sign of fluid by-pass like the old one showed.
Is it possible the caliper-cylinder/pistons are ALSO bad, allowing fluid to just blow by the pistons and recirculate with no pressure or braking? Experiencing two related failures is not common, but with these Chinese scoots, ANYTHING is to be expected.
Next step I guess, is to replace the 2-piston caliper. If that doesn't work, then replace the line. THAT comprises the entire rear-brake assembly (except for the actual disk).
There are no leaks, and the fluid level remains full. But, the brake lever generates NO pressure or braking at all.
Has anyone else experienced this?
This is driving me nutz!
Thanks one and all,
Leo (still walking) in Texas
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Post by alleyoop on Mar 14, 2013 22:17:24 GMT -5
There is still air in there, so naturally you would pump and open the bleeder and see nice clear fluid close it then go back to the MC and take the cover off and squeeze the brake handle slowly so the fluid doesn't squirt out. Then tie the brake handle closed and let it sit for awhile then go back and pump them again slowly and repeat. On some of those slow pumps you hopefully will see tiny bubbles in the popping up. Also help it along tape the brake line with a screwdriver handle or something not hard just tap it along the line.
Sometimes you get lucky and it works with few pumps but sometimes it is a PITA getting the air out. Alleyoop
Here is a much easier way:
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Post by skuttadawg on Mar 14, 2013 23:16:40 GMT -5
I would have a helper so one could pump up the lever and hold it while another would turn the bleeder valve a fraction of a turn and quickly close it up while the lever is depressed . When you put brake pads on a car the first time you press the pedal it goes to the floor but pressure buiolds up with a few pumps . When I was in auto repair class a guy put on some front pads and backed the car out without testing the brakes and backed into a brand new Porsche 944 .
Did use DOT 3 or 4 as my scooters use 4 . Most people are familar with DOT3 as its been is use for many of years
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Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 15, 2013 2:30:39 GMT -5
Hey, MANY THANKS GUYS!
I've seen the back-fill and flush before, and it REALLY looks like the best bet! My problem is that I've just never done these before, and didn't realize the tricks of the trade... So I have to learn... Now, when it comes to replacing the stranded cable on the front brake of a '57 harley pan-head, I'm yer' man! HeHeHe...
Hmmm... I'm thinking back (WAY BACK) to turning nearly 140 mph on my old Harley chopper, remembering how "Fred Flintstone" those mechanical brakes were... Foot-pedal with a rod to the rear, and a feeble bicycle-style cable to the front. That front brake was just slightly better than no brake at all... No wonder so many chopper-jockeys just omitted the front brake for cosmetics. Cheesh... THOSE were the DAYS... NOT!
"Mo bettah I learn to service hydraulic disks..." LOL!
Again, thanks so much. This kind of great advice is what the site is all about. You're the BEST!
Leo (thanking one and all) in Texas
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Post by scooterkb on Mar 15, 2013 4:43:50 GMT -5
Hi Leo, when you bleed the brakes and you're pumping the lever, the bleed valve must be closed. Then you maintain pressure on the lever and open the bleed valve, let the lever go say 3/4 way to the handle bar and close the bleed valve before letting the lever go. Repeat until you get a firm lever. Pumping the lever with the bleed valve open may have drawn air back through the valve. The way I flushed mine (because I'm cheap) was to have a small length of rubber tube (about 6" long) that fit tight to bleed valve and then over some small bore clear tube about 3 feet long and sucked on the tube 'til it was almost full. Closed the valve, emptied the tube (back through the rubber end, you don't want brake fluid in yer mouth!). Repeated a few times and then bled in the usual manner. All the best, Mike
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Post by jeepsteve92xj on Mar 15, 2013 8:12:48 GMT -5
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Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 29, 2013 23:18:53 GMT -5
Time for an update...I got the new rear brake-lever/master-cylinder on, and back-flushed, filled and bled the brake as/per the GREAT how-to video Alleyoop provided. (THAT vid is GREAT and it's as easy as it looks!... THANKS Alleyoop!). It's DEFINITELY the way to do these small brakes. So... I finished, buttoned it all up and squeezed the lever. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! Just "limp".I checked the ORIGINAL lever/cylinder assembly, and it was DEFINITELY bad. Would barely push fluid. So I did the same with the new one. It's fine, and with the bleeder cracked open it provides a strong squirt with each pull of the lever... Now, since the handlebar controls are good, and the system is full of fluid and free of air... To my knowledge, the ONLY thing left is the REAR caliper assembly.The ONLY answer I can come up with is that the calipers are frozen open, and fluid is passing by the pistons with NO effect whatsoever on the pads.Having THAT phenomenon take place SIMULTANEOUSLY with the lever/master cylinder going bad seems MORE than unlikely... BUT... Since the handlebar cylinder was trashed and corroded, it could be that some "schmootz" from the master cylinder went through the line and trashed the caliper piston/cylinders, freezing them and scoring the cylinders/pistons to let fluid pass. After all, aluminum oxide IS what they make sandpaper from... LOL! And there was PLENTY of it in the old handlebar cylinder... With everything from the brake hand-lever to the bleeder in order, I now ordered a new dual-piston (direct factory-style replacement) caliper. I can see no reason that the system should not work correctly with that final part replaced... I back-flushed SO much that I certainly now have the cleanest, daisy-fresh brake fluid on the planet in the system... If anybody has has any better advice, I'm all ears!Leo (Frustrated and walking) in Texas
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Post by terrilee on Mar 30, 2013 7:19:32 GMT -5
Leo old friend
i did mine once, watching about the same video, alleyoop posted and mine worked within minutes maybe i got lucky, maybe you are un lucky at this.
hope ya get it working very soon.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 31, 2013 0:17:14 GMT -5
[replyingto=terrilee]terrilee[/replyingto]Terrilee,
The back-flush, fill and bleed went just like the video. However, the fluid has NO effect on the caliper.
At least NOW I know the old lever/cylinder assembly WAS bad, AND I'm getting clean, air-free fluid to the rear caliper. The trouble MUST now be the caliper itself.
I do think the pistons in the caliper are frozen, damaged, and the fluid is just passing by them. I'll have the new caliper in a week or so, and I'll find out. I should have bought a COMPLETE assembly (lever to caliper). Would have been cheaper, and then the ENTIRE system would be new. However, I REALLY don't feel like fishing a new brake line through the scoot, if the old one is not leaking.
Live and learn...
We're still hoping your vacation gets postponed INDEFINITELY!
Ride safe!
Leo
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