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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 27, 2015 22:06:45 GMT -5
With the spark plug removed the starter keeps spinning it doesn't stop Now does this mean the starter motor isn't putting out enough power to start the engine? If so how does the starter suddenly not being strong enough make the scooter die while mid ride? About the second part of your comment: The failed starter does NOT have anything to do with why your scooter initially died while you were riding. But, until you get it to where it turns over normally you can't measure compression or do anything at all to figure out what's going on. And maybe - just maybe - once the starter works properly the thing will start up. I kind of doubt it - thinking you might still have a fuel delivery problem or something - but till it's turning over nothing more can be done. If you didn't put a BBK in you probably do not "need" a high torque starter and can "probably" get away with a cheaper China standard one. Also - if you still have your original, OEM CDI I'd put it back in (presuming it works) until the engine is running. Advanced angle CDIs advance the point of ignition all the time - including at very low RPMs (like when you are trying to get the engine to start) and make starting much more difficult. They work better than stock once the engine is going, but make starting more difficult. So .... till the engine is running, best to use the OEM one. Let me ask you this, when I removed my starter, I put my hand in where the male end of the starter went, i can turn the gear that is in there very easily (only counter clockwise) and it wobbles from side to side (it isn't held firm) does this all sound correct?  |
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 26, 2015 18:56:17 GMT -5
Guys! How about we try and guide Murky through this a step at a time, so he has at least a LITTLE chance of figuring out what is going on? Sure - this COULD be a bunch of things --- but if he is hopping about from one theory to the next he will never, ever, get anywhere. This stuff is interesting to us (esp the stuff P-Guy posts, which is REALLY interesting always) ... I feel we are doing more to confuse than to help at this point. First step - see if the starter or clutch is causing the inability to turn over. ps: dollar - a 150 does not have a bolt on the starter but a screw hole. And the motor, while in fact a torquey little thing, is not at all as torquey as that in a 244cc engine. You can easily hold it in your hand while running it. With the spark plug removed the starter keeps spinning it doesn't stop Now does this mean the starter motor isn't putting out enough power to start the engine? If so how does the starter suddenly not being strong enough make the scooter die while mid ride? |
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 26, 2015 16:58:29 GMT -5
First remove the spark plug and see if there is a change doing the same thing. Do this before going after anything more radical. No change means there is a problem beyond the starter motor. But if the engine with the plug removed (and thus zero compression) spins freely, I'd suspect your starter motor. You never said if you put in a BBK. If so, a standard, OEM starter motor often lacks enough torque to spin the motor. ps: in checking, you DID connect the jumper cables from the car battery as follows: black to engine ground, red touched directly to the screw connection on the starter motor itself (not just to the battery positive terminal) ..... right? Yes i connected black to engine ground (valve cover) and i removed the screw and wire from the starter and attached the red from battery to starter it instantly turned once and stopped No bbk Uni filter Aftermarket exhaust 115 main jet Advance cdi |
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 26, 2015 15:08:43 GMT -5
He can bypass the solenoid and connect a car battery directly to the starter and see what happens . if the same thing happens then its either the starter or the st clutch . he can then try a new starter and if it does not work then its the starter clutch . very simple. Alright so hooked to the car battery there was no change, still one spin So the problem is the starter and /or starter clutch Is there a way I can test these 2 without just replacing them, also what is the thread size on the Freewheel? |
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 24, 2015 13:25:51 GMT -5
If plug is removed will it turn Over? Will try this tonight This could be it. It only really does like 1 turn when trying to start, also i have tried putting fuel in the vac line to bypass car Gas has to be atomized into the air stream. Just squirting it into the intake manifold will not tell you much (and will make it even harder to turn the engine. That's why I suggested starter fluid (which is in a spray can). But even that will not work if you do not get the starter turning the engine properly with the starter motor. Ah I see that makes more sense. Thanks for info so my to do list is as follows: Test battery Test starter solenoid Test starter with jumper cables, black to ground, red to screw on starter wire Try starter with plug removed Anything else i missed that falls in this ballpark? |
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 24, 2015 10:10:22 GMT -5
About "low compression" ---- if your engine was not turning over easily when you tested compression then you got an incorrect reading. The engine should rotate 3 or 4 times WITH THE THROTTLE WIDE OPEN !!!!! to get a good reading. A turn .... stop .... turn will not give any kind of compression. But if you really DO have such incredibly low compression (30 is WAAAYYYY low!), none of the above will correct that. So step 1 is getting the engine to turn properly. Might just be that you then will get enough vacuum to the fuel pump, get fuel to the carb, and the problem will be solved. This could be it. It only really does like 1 turn when trying to start, also i have tried putting fuel in the vac line to bypass car |
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 24, 2015 10:05:29 GMT -5
I had bought a top end rebuild kit but it didn't come with a new head
Anyway I really appreciate the long simplified responses I'm going to turn it into a check list and go through everything mentioned then I'll check back in with the results
Thanks again
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 23, 2015 22:46:54 GMT -5
it should have also verified pickup and stator placement. electrical testing should have verified no shorts to ground. i wonder if the OP even tested the pickup. I have not, this is not something I previously knew how to do, hence this topic, so I can learn Also I never said I replaced the coil, just tried a different cdi, but it was giving spark Also would a short in the wiring cause it to have low compression? Or would a weak starter cause the scooter to shut down mid ride? Sorry this questions might seem stupid but I'm still figuring out exactly how everything influences each other. Also if you look at the pics I posted there is some chipping on the head near the valves, not sure if you're saying this is fine or not? |
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 23, 2015 15:31:03 GMT -5
i may have missed it , but did you already know how to set the cam or did some here tell you how ? I already knew the orientation for TDC for the cam ive done the valve lashing quite a few times, I was more concerned that maybe i put the chain back on wrong, ill have to go back and check the Freewheel marks The valves were already .004 and .005 intake/exhaust That was the first thing i checked when diagnosing this issue |
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 23, 2015 14:58:27 GMT -5
if the chain tensioner somehow came loose , then it would be possible for the chain to skip a tooth or more. if the timing is off , then another valve adjustment will need to be done after setting the timing. The tensioner was tight when I originally took everything apart but I'm starting to doubt my repair work How do i test if my timing is correct |
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 23, 2015 14:47:36 GMT -5
Did you set timing marks with cam and piston? it sure sounds like out of time? Yes i did, the "t" on my fly wheel with the big hole on the cam (the two small holes line up with the head) Ive set TDC a few times from doing the valves, but never removed the cam before, so did I do this correctly? Originally when it was new tdc didn't like directly up on the free wheel |
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 23, 2015 12:08:59 GMT -5
So very disappointing, the top end rebuild seemed to have no effect on the problem What do I do now? Another question, if you look at the rockers closely the small letters are upside down when installed. This is how it originally was, I'm curious to know if they have a top and a bottom? Or are they interchangeable? Also i still found the Freewheel to be a bit difficult to spin to set TDC In the videos I watched they span pretty freely but mine has decent resistance, is this the root of my problem? Well I saw this coming. a shame Couple things. Thanks for the pics, they help You have replaced the Cylinder and Piston assy and NOT the Cylinder Head or "Head". From the pics of the Old Piston could use one from the Skirt Sides, Front and Back. (Thrust Faces). From what I could see looked like Allot of Trash went thru the Motor, thats all that stuff stuck in the Piston Skirts. Although Not Good will Not cause your Motor to Go South and Lose Compression the Way You Described. A Valve Issue Will. Along with the New Cyl, Piston Assy a Typical "Top End Re-Build" will and heck, Must Include a Valve Job, New Valve Springs, Seals and a close Valve Guide Inspection, I have Little Faith anymore in sourcing a Local Valve job, Complete New Cylinder Heads are Cheap. You Need One with the Milage you stated. In the back of my mind has always been it need a valve adjustment and has been continually Adjusted and Checked on Overlap Stroke. I hope Im wrong there. that'll give ya bout 30 psi Thanks for the response, so what I'm gathering is I also need a replacement head  Should I also replace the rocker arm assembly? Sucks that what I replaced didn't work but it was a great learning experience |
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 23, 2015 8:15:02 GMT -5
So very disappointing, the top end rebuild seemed to have no effect on the problem
What do I do now?
Another question, if you look at the rockers closely the small letters are upside down when installed. This is how it originally was, I'm curious to know if they have a top and a bottom? Or are they interchangeable?
Also i still found the Freewheel to be a bit difficult to spin to set TDC
In the videos I watched they span pretty freely but mine has decent resistance, is this the root of my problem?
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 23, 2015 8:08:53 GMT -5
Video, still getting same 30psi compression  |
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Post by murkyapricot on Dec 23, 2015 8:05:52 GMT -5
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