|
|
Post by oldchopperguy on Sept 13, 2015 22:43:33 GMT -5
Lately I've been fascinated with the "phenomenon" of the disappearing 250... Name-brand makers today are replacing the venerable 250 with 300 and larger scooters, with dual-cams, 4-valves and electronic fuel-injection... Nice upgrades IF you can afford 'em.
So what is becoming of the good old carbureted 250 cc ride? Well, they ARE still around for the scooter-jockeys who can live with wide-open 65-70 mph performance. I did a quick search on the net, and found both OLD style, AND quite contemporary 250's from China, ALL IN THE UNDER $2,000 class... Even with tax and delivery, they can be had for right around the two-grand budget.
True, they lack the sophistication of the new breed of 300 cc electronic-injected marvels, but... ANY of them should equal the performance of my old Kymco Grandvista 250. Good enough for  % of budget riders' everyday needs, from local shopping to 65+ mph highway adventures.
Here are a few examples I came across from an internet dealer (superiorpowersports.com). I have no idea how good this seller is, but only used his listings for examples of what's out there in the $2,000 and less price range...
That first model is pretty dated, with 12" wheels, and just like what we saw 5-9 years ago. The second model is fairly contemporary with 13" wheels and modern styling. That third model is mighty sharp by anybody's standards, with 15" wheels, dual-disk front brakes and a SERIOUS look about it.
Like I said, these are not modern wonders, BUT should equal the performance of my old Kymco. And THAT is a "quantum-leap" from most 150's. They should take a rider from a "not quite adequate" performer, to an "OK" ride for most uses.
For the price, these "disappearing displacement class" Chinese scooters might be some of the best bargains around. If one can find a super-deal on an Italian scooter, or other higher-end ride, that is even better, but most of the time these name-brand rides will cost well over $3,000 delivered (usually, quite a bit more).
Even with tax, scooters like these simple, carbureted Chinese 250's should get you cruising at 65 mph at a bargain price... Around $2,000 to $2,500/ Probably worth doing a little wrenching the first season!
Just some thoughts on bargain performance... 
Leo (thinking CHEAP) in Texas |
|
|
|
Post by rockynv on Sept 14, 2015 5:44:10 GMT -5
The Bali being 100 pounds lighter has the best capacity despite the dated looking design. They all generally have a suspension package with the same basic capacity so with 100 some odd pounds less plastic and brickabrack on the Bali the payback is a bit better performance along with up to an additional 100+ lbs carrying capacity left in the springs. Those bikes weigh from top to bottom 271.2lbs, 320lbs and 385lbs however are all about 16.1 to 16.6 hp so while the 16.1 hp Bali is rated with a Max Speed of  mph the others loose 10 to 15 mph top speed due to their additional mass and wind resistance. One thing to note on the heavier 300 cc engine in general is that it many times will have 2 or so fewer horses than the 250 even though torque will be a bit higher so many may not see much of a performance increase between them making the 250 an even better choice for people on a budget.. |
|
Sophomore Rider
Currently Offline
Commuting is the best part of my day!
Posts: 213
Likes: 14
Joined: Feb 26, 2013 7:56:23 GMT -5
|
Post by trailheadmike on Sept 14, 2015 6:32:20 GMT -5
Not sure why they seem to have stopped selling my Vog 260, which for a while was everywhere. Another basic carbed 257 that meets your needs for local travels and highway jaunts while looking good doing it. The TBX-260 (the BMS version) is still around but now is only sold as EFI so doesn't fit your categories.
|
|
|
|
Post by rockynv on Sept 14, 2015 11:59:38 GMT -5
Not sure why they seem to have stopped selling my Vog 260, which for a while was everywhere. Another basic carbed 257 that meets your needs for local travels and highway jaunts while looking good doing it. The TBX-260 (the BMS version) is still around but now is only sold as EFI so doesn't fit your categories. People had a rabid hate for them for some reason. There were two versions with similar body work however one had a mono-shock rear suspension with the shock and spring acting on the center of the bike while the other had conventional outboard mounted rear shocks and springs. Some claimed they rattled and had front suspension issues that would break your teeth and the bikes fell out of popularity very quickly. The reality was closer to over inflating the front tires and a headlamp connector that would come loose from its hanger and bang against the headlamp reflector along with the need for a lighter front strut oil on some early ones. There was also resistance to the Yamaha Majesty 260cc engine that did not have externally adjustable valves like the Honda derivatives even though with the more horizontal cylinder it could end up allowing for more under seat storage area. If Yamaha had distributed them in the US along with the 400cc Majesty it may have been different with people perceiving them as Majesty Clones with a licensed Yamaha designed engine made by a former partner in China. |
|
Sophomore Rider
Currently Offline
Posts: 168
Likes: 30
Joined: Feb 26, 2013 15:44:08 GMT -5
|
Post by cookees on Sept 14, 2015 12:52:39 GMT -5
A little background on Roketa. Roketa is the brand name of a distributor, namely, Goldenvale Inc. Goldenvale is well known in the dealer community. Actually they could be referred to as a Mega-Distributor. They will go to a manufacturer and make a deal to purchase all of their excess inventory... at a substantial discount. It's a win-win situation. The manufacturer gets cash and Goldenvale can offer various scooters to dealers at attractive pricing. In most cases Goldenvale will have them re-badge the scooter as a "Roketa". So if the dealer knows his vin codes, he can ascertain the original builder ...and their inherent level of their quality.
My recollection is that the majority of 250cc Scooters were/are made by one of the 5 Jonway companies. Znen, is also producing a 250.
|
|
|
|
Post by oldchopperguy on Sept 14, 2015 21:51:13 GMT -5
GREAT info, one and all!
I have a suspicion that the plain-Jane, single-cam, 2-valve carbureted Chinese 250 may become the "new 150" among budget riders. I'll bet China has hundreds of thousands of these modest, easy-maintenance water-cooled 250 engine/CVT power-plants in scooters, sitting in factories, cottages and barns just waiting to be the affordable "upgrade" to the old 150... Providing ENORMOUS increases in speed, acceleration and general riding pleasure over the old 150's while still "keeping it scooter". It looks to my old eye that the 250 frames and suspension are far superior to the typical 150, along with the mechanics, electrics and other pertinent parts. That's DEFINITELY true with my Taiwanese 250, and to some extent, also the Chinese scoots. The 250's are just made a little heavier-duty than the air-cooled 150's.
I'll bet this gold-mine of dated Chinese power plants/scooters will be a boon to Roketa, too... A "re-badger's dream-come-true"! Interesting about Roketa being a distributor, buying up various scooters and re-badging them. I thought that might be the case.
I can only compare the Chinese 250's to my own Kymco 250 which is similar in construction... It's dated for sure, but rides GREAT up to 70+ mph. I did test-ride an old, sun-dried, cracked, rattle-can-painted, duct-tape-patched, 8-year-old tired and ratty Chinese 250 my dealer had on the lot (which he did NOT recommend buying unless I had plenty of tools... LOL!). Asking price was $700 and THAT was VERY negotiable... Actually it rode pretty well. It topped out at about 65 mph, but had good acceleration and "OK" handling. The Kymco I bought was 15 mph faster, and handled better, but the Chinese 250 was a lot of scooter for the money.
So, I'm thinking a NEW one would be a good buy, even if it needed some of the typical fixes (especially P-rated tires). I doubt most Chinese 250's come with better than cheap J-rated meats.
Rockynv posted some VERY interesting facts concerning weight and horsepower. That 3rd picture shows a scooter anyone would look good on, but if it's saddled with only 16 hp and 385 pounds, it might be a tad slow. My old Kymco 250 weighs 365 pounds, and is rated at 19 hp. That extra 3 ponies is noticeable when so few are involved to begin with... LOL! Hmmm... I just happened to think: Back in the sixties, my Harley chopper, "Old Blue" weighed about the same as "Minnie Mouse"... Under 400 pounds... BUT... Old Blue had over 250 hp.
Dang! Have I gotten OLD or WHAT? LOLOLOL!
I guess what got me so interested in the Chinese 250's is that they really are at least in the ball park with my aging Kymco, and honestly, IT is a JOY to ride within its few limitations. It sits and feels VERY much like my old Harley Electra-Glide... Similar performance too, but with slightly quicker acceleration, and 10-15 mph less top speed. All in all, just as enjoyable on the road as the old Hog, and MUCH better in tight traffic (and ALL braking situations).
I'm amazed at what 19 hp can actually do... 16 hp isn't all that far off (probably good for an honest 65 mph) and SO affordable. A new Chinese 250 would STILL be FAR better all round than even a high-dollar, heavily-modified 150. All these water-cooled 250's seem to have enough TORQUE to get off the line, and handle hills. I loved my old Chinese 150 for seven years, but...After those years of riding a 150, most any 250 would be a treat!
Lotsa "bang for the buck" I think!
It will be interesting to see how many long-term 150 riders will fork over maybe $1,500 or so (after selling the 150) to get the major improvement of the outdated, but highly-useful new 250.
When I test-rode that truly BEAT and RATTY Chinese 250 I was still AMAZED at the improvement over my sweet-running and mint 150. Just no REPLACEMENT for DISPLACEMENT...
I think there are plenty of American homes just waiting for all those old-generation water-cooled workhorses from China...
We shall see!
Leo |
|
|
|
Post by rockynv on Sept 14, 2015 23:50:20 GMT -5
Actually most of the heavier 250's have less capacity than the lighter 250 cc bikes and even some of the twin shock 150 cc Chinese bikes. Many while they have the engine capacity and seating to ride double do not have the capacity to carry much over 200 lbs. Many are past their Max capacity just carting my 250 lbs around which is one of the major reasons I went with the Aprilia since most of their scooters have a 465+ lb weight capacity. Don't get fooled by a two passenger seat either as my Lance had a two passenger seat but was only rated for about 170 lbs so it could only carry 2 kids about lbs apiece. The Bali had the greatest capacity of the 250cc Chinese bikes being rated to carry about 350 lbs. while the 385 lb 250cc model most often was only rated to carry about 230 lbs. There were some the tipped the scales at over 400 lbs that were styled to look like the Burgman and those had the lowest capacity of them all even though they had the largest bodies. The problem is that most use the same basic bike underneath the different body covers and if the body weighs an extra hundred or so pounds over the base 270 lbs then it is just eating up capacity and top speed. When I was shopping since I am a big body (yes I admit it) I did not want to have to face issues with weak suspensions and bottoming out especially if I took a passenger or picked up a few parcels at the grocery store like I did with my Lance(Znen/Puma). I have picked up multiple bags of mulch and top soil, sprinkler pumps and tools even a Rug Doctor with all the attachments, chemicals, etc to shampoo my carpets with the Aprilia while I wouldn't have been able to take but a very small child along with me on the 300+ lb Chinese 250's. Not saying they are no good just pointing out that you do have to be mindful that there are limitations and the more the tupperware and the frame to support it weighs the less usable carrying capacity the Chinese 250 will have which you need to vet out in determining if a particular model will meet your needs. |
|
|
|
Post by Jarlaxle on Sept 15, 2015 17:59:49 GMT -5
Not sure why they seem to have stopped selling my Vog 260, which for a while was everywhere. Another basic carbed 257 that meets your needs for local travels and highway jaunts while looking good doing it. The TBX-260 (the BMS version) is still around but now is only sold as EFI so doesn't fit your categories. At a guess, the old 257 Linhai doesn't meet emission standards without EFI. |
|
|
|
Post by spandi on Sept 16, 2015 14:28:19 GMT -5
I think the main reason that the "Big Brand" manufacturers have quit making 250's is that the Chinese so dominate the field (and at a low price point) that in order to justify the increased cost they have to offer something "more" and that something (along with EFI, four valves, etc) is a bigger engine. The nice thing about the old style scoots is they're much easier for the DIY crowd to work on.  |
|
|
|
Post by oldchopperguy on Sept 16, 2015 17:41:01 GMT -5
I think the main reason that the "Big Brand" manufacturers have quit making 250's is that the Chinese so dominate the field (and at a low price point) that in order to justify the increased cost they have to offer something "more" and that something (along with EFI, four valves, etc) is a bigger engine. The nice thing about the old style scoots is they're much easier for the DIY crowd to work on.
I agree... But in addition, traffic seems to be speeding up in many places. The 65-70 top-cruising speed of the average 250 just isn't adequate anymore. However, to get that 80- mph cruise, a LOT of "upgrading" is needed... It's much like a jet... 600 mph is no problem. Breaking into the 700+ mph sound-barrier realm requires a whole different animal. 65 on a 250 is no problem, but requires a new animal too.
Like you mention, it really takes bigger displacement, EFI, dual-cams, 4-valves... Not to mention bigger, better wheels and tires, brakes, suspension, etc. All this means a LOT of expense and a 4, 5, maybe 6-thousand dollar price-tag at the dealership, AND more difficult maintenance when needed.
To get to the next level of performance, manufacturers have had to provide SCOOTERS that rival highway-capable MOTORCYCLES in design and construction. NOT cheap to accomplish, but they've done a good job.
Back in "my day" the smoking, clanking flathead Cushmans and the 2-stroke "lawnmower-engine" Vespas and Lambrettas were the order of the day. Cheap, 45-55 mph absolute top-speed, "wheelbarrow-tires" and Fred Flintstone Brakes... and you could rebuild them with a screwdriver and a Crescent-wrench. THOSE were SCOOTERS. We loved them for what they were, but they were never meant to compete on the highway with MOTORCYCLES.
Today's larger scooters compete very well on the highways with motorcycles. The old-school "traditional" role of "scooters" is now relegated to the 50cc genre (which are FABULOUS rides, actually as good or better than the "full-size" scooters of my youth). The Chinese 150 bridged the gap well in the super-affordable scooter that could actually cruise 50-55 mph. They revolutionized economy 2-wheel transportation... Heck, they even got this old Hog-jockey on one for more than seven years!
From all the good input this thread has generated, it's obvious the Chinese 250 scooter is becoming dated, is slightly slow and varies a LOT in carrying capacity... BUT... They look to me like they are still the affordable, DREAM alternative to the typical 150. Since they offer serious hill-climbing TORQUE, a bottom-end Chinese 250 (carbureted, 2-valves, 16hp etc.) still would exceed "end-of-the-rainbow" performance goal for a heavily-modded 150... Dang-near "unobtainium" for the builder, but available to all for $2-grand or less. And I'll bet a bowl of rice that correcting the inevitable "Chinese bugs" they may come with, is STILL a lot cheaper and easier than trying to make a 150 into a highway ride.
IF there are enough of them available, and IF riders will settle for a 65 mph cruise, the lowly Chinese 250 may soon become the "hot-ticket" for the budget-rider looking for simplicity, ease of maintenance and a great grocery-getter that can still sneak onto the freeway when necessary.
And, they look cool, too... LOL!
As affordable as these Chinese scooters are, I'm really expecting to see some increase in the 250 riders here.
Ride safe!
Leo in Texas
PS: Off the subject, but has anyone else noticed a proliferation of what I'd call "scootercycles" around town? They look like probably  -100cc Honda clutch-n'-gears motors in open-engine, TEENSY bikes proportioned like the smallest 50cc scooters... Sorta like the old Honda trail-bikes, BUT definitely on-road bikes looking more like scooters than cycles.
Whatever they are, they seem to go like stink from zero to 45 mph, topping out around 50 mph. Very appealing for around town!
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelbender6 on Sept 16, 2015 19:30:29 GMT -5
"I have a suspicion that the plain-Jane, single-cam, 2-valve carbureted Chinese 250 may become the "new 150" among budget riders."
I've got to agree with you on the older style 250 Chinese scooters, Leo. More than adequate for freeway use during rush hour and not too heavy to park on the sidewalk during errands. They have considerably more passing and hillclimbing power than conventional 150s. If you don't need to go 80mph, the two valve 250s can meet your needs for very little money.
|
|
Sophomore Rider
Currently Offline
Posts: 168
Likes: 30
Joined: Feb 26, 2013 15:44:08 GMT -5
|
Post by cookees on Sept 16, 2015 19:58:25 GMT -5
[/p] PS: Off the subject, but has anyone else noticed a proliferation of what I'd call "scootercycles" around town? They look like probably -100cc Honda clutch-n'-gears motors in open-engine, TEENSY bikes proportioned like the smallest 50cc scooters... Sorta like the old Honda trail-bikes, BUT definitely on-road bikes looking more like scooters than cycles.
Whatever they are, they seem to go like stink from zero to 45 mph, topping out around 50 mph. Very appealing for around town!
[/quote] Do you mean these??? www.rpmcoatings.com/trail70.html or These??? gokartsusa.com/Honda-Mini-Trail-Z50-Clone-Bikes.aspx |
|
|
|
Post by oldchopperguy on Sept 16, 2015 23:03:49 GMT -5
[/p] PS: Off the subject, but has anyone else noticed a proliferation of what I'd call "scootercycles" around town? They look like probably -100cc Honda clutch-n'-gears motors in open-engine, TEENSY bikes proportioned like the smallest 50cc scooters... Sorta like the old Honda trail-bikes, BUT definitely on-road bikes looking more like scooters than cycles.
Whatever they are, they seem to go like stink from zero to 45 mph, topping out around 50 mph. Very appealing for around town!
[/quote] Do you mean these??? www.rpmcoatings.com/trail70.htmlor These??? gokartsusa.com/Honda-Mini-Trail-Z50-Clone-Bikes.aspx[/quote][/p]
To me, they look like the "Mini-Trail Rover 125". Those I've seen had very small street-tread tires... Really cute, speedy and very appealing!
Lots of fun in the city!
Thanks for posting!
Leo
|
|
New Rider
Currently Offline
Posts: 36 
Likes: 6
Joined: Sept 15, 2015 5:55:30 GMT -5
|
Post by cato on Sept 17, 2015 1:54:03 GMT -5
been thinking about an older 250 scoot myself, but they seem really heavy and I'd feel bad about parking next to the front door at the supermarket, whereas my little 50 is pretty much a bicycle size
|
|
|
|
Post by oldchopperguy on Sept 17, 2015 20:51:42 GMT -5
been thinking about an older 250 scoot myself, but they seem really heavy and I'd feel bad about parking next to the front door at the supermarket, whereas my little 50 is pretty much a bicycle size Cato,
First, WELCOME to the site!
Now, if you're riding a 50 and want to be more at-ease at higher surface-street speeds (45 to 55 where traffic will often run over 60 mph) you will absolutely LOVE the old-school 250's.
The 250 class DOES vary a LOT in size and weight. Some are little bigger than the larger 50 cc scoots, some are similar to the typical 150 (like my old Kymco Grandvista 250) and some are HUGE. You need to do your homework to see what size and weight 250 suits you.
Below is my "Minnie Mouse"... She's not the least bit intimidating... Just a sorta-fifty-cc girl, with a little "jackrabbit DNA" stuffed-in... LOL! A very friendly ride!
I wouldn't feel any worse about parking a 250 any place I'd park a 50... Or a Harley for that matter. Two-wheeled vehicles fit places cars don't. (If you put saddle-bags on your 50, it's as wide and bulky as a Hog bagger... LOL!).
When I finally went to a 250 from my old Chinese 150, I sought a 250 as similar to my 150 as possible to keep it "nimble" and easy to man-handle in tight parking situations. My old 150 weighed 230 pounds, and was similar in "feel" to many 50's. My "new" old Kymco 250 weighs 360 pounds which is heavier, BUT it's barely noticeable after the first few days of riding. Scooters have SO much of their weight WAY down low, so a tad more "heft" is mainly noticeable when putting it on the center stand.
I can pretty much assure you that if you're comfortable on a 50, in a few days of riding, you'll be even more comfortable on a small 250... ESPECIALLY the first few times you pull into traffic on a 45 mph speed-limit street where everybody is running 60 mph... It is SWEET! And even a bottom-end 250 will likely give you a stiffer frame, more comfort, better brakes, better suspension, bigger and/or better wheels and tires. Just plain heavier-duty from front-wheel to muffler...
My personal riding experience covers more than a half-century, mostly on Harley choppers and baggers. Now, at nearly 70, arthritis forces me to ride a step-through frame scooter. I was not disappointed with a Chinese 150 EXCEPT for not being able to keep up with frisky traffic. Moving to the 250 was GREAT, being nearly as nimble and handy in the Wally World parking lot as the 150, AND being as stable and enjoyable at 65-70 mph as my old Harleys. I think the SLOWEST outdated 250 should STILL cruise at least 60 mph.
The older 250's like mine, or the new but dated Chinese scooters are NOT capable of 80 mph cruise. But they WILL run 60-65, maybe 70 for the lightweight ones OK depending on the individual scooter. That's enough for most riding needs. And, unlike the huge, heavy 300-800 cc touring scooters which often CAN run to 100 mph, but are much like large motorcycles, they still "scoot"... The smallish 250's can wild-mouse the traffic, sneak into tight places, man-handle backwards into the shed, etc. (if you drop it, you can probably pick it back up... LOL) yet, they still can run up to modest highway speeds if needed.
My advice to you is to test-ride as many different types as possible, remembering the 250 cc class encompasses lightweights, middleweights and heavyweights... And, short and long wheelbases. My guess is that you'll find just the right all-purpose ride you'll be happy with for many years to come.
Ride safe!
Leo (still happy with my old 250) in Texas
|
|
% of budget riders' everyday needs, from local shopping to 65+ mph highway adventures.
mph the others loose 10 to 15 mph top speed due to their additional mass and wind resistance.
-100cc Honda clutch-n'-gears motors in open-engine, TEENSY bikes proportioned like the smallest 50cc scooters... Sorta like the old Honda trail-bikes, BUT definitely on-road bikes looking more like scooters than cycles.
