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Post by cyborg on Sept 28, 2015 19:57:29 GMT -5
I am not going to be able to convince anyone. What ever you decide to go with you will be happy with. I am lucky that my bud with 61mm bbk is on stock gearings and he is faster than me all around and our mods are the same. Anyway my 14/37 gears will be here this week and hopefully I can confirm if I gain speed all the way around or not by racing him. Don't feel like the Lone Ranger ,,,Dan has two Yamaha smaxes,,,same cc's one is faster,,,right from the factory |
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Post by geh3333 on Sept 28, 2015 20:30:47 GMT -5
OK, see if this makes sense (this might be helpful to others in making gear set decisions) 1. First, we need to see what going from a normal (13 inch) wheel down to a 10 inch wheel does. The question is about the circumference of the tire - how far on the road it travels with ONE rotation. The circumference is from the diameter (times pi), and the diameter is made up of the wheel (say, 13 inches) PLUS the height of tire on the top AND the tire on the bottom. Typical 13" wheel and tire Tire - 3.58" on top and on bottom of wheel Wheel - 13 Diameter - 20.16 inches Circumference (distance traveled in 1 rotation) - 63.33 inches Typical 10" wheel and tire Tire - 3.31" on top and on bottom of wheel Wheel - 10 Diameter - 16.62 inches Circumference (distance traveled in 1 rotation) - 52.21 inches Effective reduction ratio = 63.33/52.21 = 1.22. So, if you are used to thinking about gear sets and ratios on a bike with 13 inch wheels, you need to think that going down to 10 inch wheels will be like adding another reduction gear of 1.22 to 1. Whatever ratio (on 13" wheels) you are thinking about, multiply it by 1.22 to find the "effective" ratio of the same gear set on 10" wheels.2. For the gear sets you guys have been speaking about: Ratio Gear Set Effective 13" Ratio - 10" 2.41 17-41 2.94 2.40 15-36 2.  2.38 16-38 2.  2.31 16-37 2.82 2.25 16-36 2.75 2.12 17-36 2.58 Makes a BIG difference going to 10 inch wheels! 3. Here is a chart showing how much the change to 10 inch wheels alters the "ratio"  So, for example: Say you have 13 inch wheels and a 16/37 gear set (ratio 2.31 to 1). If you put 10 inch wheels on, and didn't change anything else, it would be like having a ratio of 2.82 to 1 ~~~~ which is even a taller ratio than having 14/39 gears in the bike with larger wheels! (see the earlier chart) Please correct me if I'm wrong . this means using 17:36 gears will turn the smaller diameter wheel easier but have a higher ratio? Meaning 17:36 gears on 13 inch rims will be tougher on the engine and have a lower ratio . so 17:36 gears will have a better chance of succession on the 10" wheel . Wait a minute actually wouldn't it have no difference on the rotation of the back wheel " as in how many times to turns " but it would just make it harder on the engine to turn the taller wheel ? Let's say you have a thirteen inch wheel on one scoot and a ten inch on another . we are using the same gearing let's just say 14:38 like I have now. The axle will turn at the same rate on both , so when u install the different wheels the axle will spin the wheel at the same exact rate but the engine will have a tougher time making the back wheel turn on the 13" then the 10" right. If you make a mark on the ten inch rim and on the axle nut , the mark on the rim will turn with the other mark and never change. The only difference will be that the scoot with the 13 inch wheel will go further on one rotation then the 10" inch wheel scoot. Therefore the rate of rotations should be the same but because of the taller diameter of the 13 inch wheel the scoot will travel.further each rotation and need more power to be able to make the full rotation . So a small wheeled scoot will be able to except a taller gear set because its easier on the engine to turn the smaller diameter wheel . what's the plus to adding taller gears on a smaller wheeled scoot ? They keep the rpms from reaching the max therefore you have More room to gain more mph at top end . If we were somehow able to install a 50" rim on the axle , the rim itself will make a full rotation every time the axle makes its full rotation. When it comes to.the back wheel it all comes down to to horse power on how fast the rotation is made. So a smaller wheeled scoot should be able to use taller gears then a bigger wheeled scoot would be able too , because the engine on a smaller wheeled scoot isn't working as hard at each rpm. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Sept 28, 2015 21:17:55 GMT -5
1. Yep - the bigger wheel's effect is that it travels further down the road in 1 rev ....
2. Nope, it's not just raw horsepower, otherwise there would be no gears in cars.
3. the smaller wheel, compared to the bigger wheel, is no different than having a final reduction gear that the bike with the larger wheel doesn't have. So the smaller wheel bike acts like it's in a lower gear at all times. All other things the same this means it will be faster of the line but top out at a lower speed.
4. What was surprising to me was the AMOUNT of impact the smaller wheel has (like a final reduction gear of 1.2 to 1). This means that even the tallest gear set - the 17/36 - acts like a SMALLER gear set on a 10" wheel than even the 17/41 gear set does on the 13' wheel (ratio on a 17/36 but with a 10" wheel = 2.6 to 1; ratio of a 17/41 on a 13" wheel = 2.4 to 1).
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Post by cyborg on Sept 28, 2015 21:31:03 GMT -5
We will see how an engine works with Taiwanese parts,,,,$50 says it'll spin the tire more than half way thru the variator face,,,this is going to be great!!!!! And some riders think Chinese is the A game,,,,,,too funny!!! I'll Devine the outcome,,,,there will be so much power on tap that the chassis' weaknesses will now show big time ,,,the bike will literally leap off the line,,, and get to terminal speed with alarming quickness,,scare the livin bejesus out of you,,,chassis and brakes are your next project,,,,,and it's only a 2 valver,,,with a full rotating mass balance job (engine,clutch,variator included) and a 4valve head,,,,then it would be crazy,,,,, add a nos system and we're talking 30-35 hp at the wheel,,,insanity
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Post by geh3333 on Sept 28, 2015 22:28:37 GMT -5
1. Yep - the bigger wheel's effect is that it travels further down the road in 1 rev .... 2. Nope, it's not just raw horsepower, otherwise there would be no gears in cars. 3. the smaller wheel, compared to the bigger wheel, is no different than having a final reduction gear that the bike with the larger wheel doesn't have. So the smaller wheel bike acts like it's in a lower gear at all times. All other things the same this means it will be faster of the line but top out at a lower speed. 4. What was surprising to me was the AMOUNT of impact the smaller wheel has (like a final reduction gear of 1.2 to 1). This means that even the tallest gear set - the 17/36 - acts like a SMALLER gear set on a 10" wheel than even the 17/41 gear set does on the 13' wheel (ratio on a 17/36 but with a 10" wheel = 2.6 to 1; ratio of a 17/41 on a 13" wheel = 2.4 to 1). I think we are talking about the same thing , but I'm just explaining it a little to much. Let's say we open the CVT cover. Next we put the scoot up on the center stand so the back wheel does not touch the ground. If we turn the bell with our hands , one full turn , the back wheel will make the same length of rotation on each 13 and 10 inch wheel. Of course if the scoot was on the ground the 13 inch scoot will travel further , but the rotation ratio of the wheels would be exactly the same. Now when it comes to the final drive gears , one can make a complete rotation without the other gear making its full rotation. So what I am getting at is , aa set of final drive gears will cause a ten and 13 inch wheel to make a full rotation at the same moment . the only 2 differences is that the bigger wheel needs more power to make its full rotation , and the bigger wheel will cause the scoot to travel further with each rotation. So the ratio from the final drive gears to the back wheel stays the same with both size wheels . or I can say the axle itself is spinning at the same rate with either size wheel. Since the inner gears turn the axle , and the wheel is connected to the axle , the the wheel will make a full rotation the same time the axle does. The easiest way to explain it is : if you make make a mark on the bell , and a mark on the 10" wheel , next push the scoot until the wheel rotates one full rotation. At the same time keep track how many rotations the bell makes. Next do the same with the 13" wheel . the bell will make the exact same numbers of rotations which both , as the wheel rotates once. The only difference again is the travel distance the scoot makes and while the scoot is running , it takes a little more power to turn the bigger wheel. |
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Post by geh3333 on Sept 28, 2015 22:37:43 GMT -5
Another way to explain it is that if you push a 13 inch wheel scoot at a steady 5 mph , the inner gears will spin at a slower rate the what the gears in a 10" wheel scoot would spin. But the rotation ratio between the back wheel and the gears of both will stay the same. The whole thing is based on the axle. Your axle does not care what size wheel it has attached to it . it will make its full rotation at the same time the back wheel does. The ration of turns the axle has compared to the final drive gears stays the same no matter what size wheel is on the axle. It just takes more power to spin a bigger wheel. Thus it makes it easier to burn rubber on smaller size wheel.
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Post by rcq92130 on Sept 28, 2015 22:43:46 GMT -5
Yes (I think).
but the larger wheel will make it seem like you are taking off in 2nd gear instead of first gear. Engine will struggle because the "effective" gearing will not be as low. But once going the little wheel scooter will redline while the bigger wheel scooter is just catching it's stride.
The difference is how effectively power is applied to the road.
And the big surprise (to me, anyway), is that the little 10" wheel makes a REALLY big change in the effective ratio between the clutch shaft and the road.
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Post by geh3333 on Sept 28, 2015 23:05:42 GMT -5
Yes (I think). but the larger wheel will make it seem like you are taking off in 2nd gear instead of first gear. Engine will struggle because the "effective" gearing will not be as low. But once going the little wheel scooter will redline while the bigger wheel scooter is just catching it's stride. The difference is how effectively power is applied to the road. And the big surprise (to me, anyway), is that the little 10" wheel makes a REALLY big change in the effective ratio between the clutch shaft and the road. Yep, that's what I meant when I was talking about the power. This video is kind of helpful only backwards. The wheel in this case " in the video " is acting more like a gear since the shaft is turning the wheel at its outer edge. But since our power turning the wheel comes from the axle attached to the center , the wheel will make a full rotation the same time the axle does , no matter what size wheel. But yes the power needed to turn the bigger wheel is greater , that's why u can go with taller gears on the smaller size wheels. Both have their plus sides. You can hit 40 mph at a lower rpm with bigger wheels , but you can also reach a higher rpm quicker with smaller wheels. Its all a matter of getting the ratio that fits your scoots HP and wheel size the wah you want it . |
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Post by rcq92130 on Sept 29, 2015 16:21:52 GMT -5
Getting the brand new engine ready to install. A bunch of additional things to put on. First - Martins' gave me a cool 20 pole (yep - TWENTY !!!) stator, which needs to be mounted. Here it is with the wires nicely tucked behind the retainer.  The old stator had a ground wire (green) attached to the core on the inside surface of the stator; the new one didn't. Probably not at all necessary, but to make sure i added a ground wire to the new stator:  Next the flywheel (a new one to match the 20-pole stator). A moon shaped woodruf key fits in the slot of the crankshaft, and the flywheel's notch needs to match up so it slides over the woodruf key:  A little Locktight, the i use my harbor freight impact wrench to get the flywheel nut on tight. Do not use an air powered impact wrench - too much stress on the crankshaft. But this electric one is puny enough to not hurt anything.  Then the fan  Now on the other side, time to add the clutch and variator. First the clutch. This is my old OEM clutch - which clearly will not be adequate and will need to be upgraded. But to get things rolling, this will do for a short time. Again, a little Locktight and the impact wrench  Yet to do - variator and a few other items. |
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Post by geh3333 on Sept 29, 2015 17:36:38 GMT -5
Wow a 20 pole stator !!! Your gonna have the fastest , quickest, most reliable scoot in the US !! No kidding. The 30mm carb will be just fine for your setup. Do u know what size jets you are starting off with. I'd prob start with a 135 main and go from there. Maybe a 42 pilot ?
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Post by cyborg on Sept 29, 2015 18:18:22 GMT -5
Is it just me or is the fan on the wrong way?
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Post by cyborg on Sept 29, 2015 18:19:55 GMT -5
My bad,,,I'll shut up now
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Post by rcq92130 on Sept 29, 2015 18:30:04 GMT -5
Is it just me or is the fan on the wrong way? Ha! Cb, now you are sounding like Horace! |
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Post by rcq92130 on Sept 29, 2015 20:14:41 GMT -5
Wow a 20 pole stator !!! Your gonna have the fastest , quickest, most reliable scoot in the US !! No kidding. The 30mm carb will be just fine for your setup. Do u know what size jets you are starting off with. I'd prob start with a 135 main and go from there. Maybe a 42 pilot ? Yeah, I wish I remembered what I ended up putting into this carb. It's really a pain to put on and take off, because with the casting on the side for the pumper it gets wedged down behind and between braces, and getting it on/off is a drag. Maybe if i go back a year and check what I wrote up it will say ... Yeah. TWENTY pole !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Looks like a radial airplane engine, huh! |
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Post by rcq92130 on Sept 30, 2015 11:46:43 GMT -5
And then the variator. This is my old Dr Pulley variator, which should be OK to use with the Martin's SuperEngine. Dr Pepper sliders are easy to install correctly - the brand name is molded into the side; simply install with the name visible. These are my super light sliders from an old engine, and will be way too light for this setup. But to get things going, I'll use them for the time being.  Then the rear plate  I lightly grease the boss, inside and out, but this is a very risky thing and might be better not done. This thing spins at 7,000 RPM, and anything that can be spit off the boss will be spit off the boss, coating belts, variator faces, and other things that should not have any grease on them. I put grease on and then basically wipe nearly all off, so only the thinnest of sheen remains (and have never had a problem with grease being flung about). But unless you are careful to not take almost all grease off, it's probably better to skip this step all together:  Then holding the variator face and rear plate together so the sliders do not fall out of position, slip the assembly onto the crankshaft  Fit the belt over the clutch and onto the boss  Fit the outer face, a little Locktight on the threads, then the washer and nut. Finger tight, then turn the variator so the belt is not pinched  And finish with a light impact wrench (or, get a tool designed to hold the variator from turning and use a torque wrench):  Add the CVT cover and the transmission side is done. Now install the shroud and intake manifold. This one has a large bore, perfectly matched to the over sized port in the Taida head. Also install a high torque starter. A normal starter motor is not adequate for this motor. Having in the past had an oil leak around the o-ring of the starter, making a total mess of the engine, I take no chances on this beautiful Taida engine and smear a little gasket sealant on the o-ring just to make sure no leaks.  Now ready to install the engine in the scooter! |
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