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Post by rockynv on Sept 10, 2015 21:54:01 GMT -5
I agree with the advice here... My scooter, a Kymco 250 Grandvista manual specifies 15W-40 "Diesel" which I buy at the local Wal-Mart. My old Chinese Xingyue 150 manual specified the same. I've never had problems with either scooter using the recommended oil. The manufacturer recommends a specific oil for specific reasons. Best to stay with the recommendations. As for vibrations, my 250 vibrates noticeably at idle, but vibrates MUCH more when the rear brake is applied, as when sitting on a hill at a red light. The brake "locks" the engine/swing-arm/suspension to the rest of the frame, increasing the felt engine vibration considerably. Once I accelerate and begin moving, the engine becomes very smooth. Ride safe! Leo in Texas The Diesel oils have better resistance to scuffing than conventional automotive oils along with cope better with ash so they are appropriate for some bike engines and the maker will usually call that out many times specifying the use of Shell Rotella. Then there is also the different needs of a wet and dry sump engine to consider. The Aprilia is dry sump so there is no pan of oil directly under the crank so the oil has to flow without any build up from the dry sump crankcase to the separate oil sump where the oil pump is located. I am not sure of the Yamaha and Kymco sump however these features do make for a difference in the specified lubricants required depending on how they are designed. Anyways engineers usually spec things for a reason and while some people in moderate climates may get away with using lesser/different lubricants than specified, here in the Deep South especially we need to be a bit more careful. Year round riding on roadways that generally are well over 100 degrees can be tough on an engine especially if it's air cooled. Ours are both water cooled so we have a bit more resistance to hot spots but still it is a brutal environment for both the bike and rider when the roadway is over 100 degrees and you get caught in heavy traffic. Almost 30,000 miles now on my Aprilia and today since I now have Kevlar jeans with Level 3 Armor on the knees I am back to commuting to work on the bike for the first time since my accident. That Aprilia is about 3 to 4 times quicker than the Spider now that I have the sliders and correct variator spacing tuned in. I really have to hold back and go more gently on the throttle now than before. Fuel injected high compression Italian motors do kick things up a bit when they're tuned in. Still very uncomfortable when I get hemmed into a dead zone by large vehicles though and very wary of any light sand blowing around. Ride Safe! |
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Post by SylvreKat on Sept 10, 2015 22:59:13 GMT -5
As for vibrations, my 250 vibrates noticeably at idle, but vibrates MUCH more when the rear brake is applied, as when sitting on a hill at a red light. The brake "locks" the engine/swing-arm/suspension to the rest of the frame, increasing the felt engine vibration considerably. Once I accelerate and begin moving, the engine becomes very smooth. Ride safe! Leo in Texas Hey, so does mine. If I sit with just the front, then there's almost no vibration. Sit with both brakes and there's noticeable some. Sit with rear only and the mirrors are going crazy. Makes me feel better knowing why this is, rather than it's something weird going wrong. >'Kat |
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Post by oldchopperguy on Sept 11, 2015 17:16:09 GMT -5
Whew, there ARE numerous differences in our rides!
Yeah, the old Grandvista, "Minnie Mouse" has a wet-sump engine. Briggs and Stratton would be proud... LOL! However, the design seems to be "bullet-proof" and will likely live on and on and on in ATV's.
I always felt the 1-quart (plus a couple ounces) capacity was a tad "short" on my Chinese 150, and seems REALLY short with the 250. Not much oil for a 20 hp, 8K rpm engine in my humble opinion... But they never seem to break. I DO check the oil level EVERY time I start up though. Even a few oz. low is a large percentage of the teensy total capacity. Even with over 15K miles on her clock, old Minnie never uses a drop of oil, OR water...
I'd feel much better if these scoots had at least a 2-quart oil-capacity with an oil cooler. But... I'm used to bikes of the fifties and sixties with NO cooling system (except crude fins) on Harleys, Triumphs, BSAs and such.
The old Harley 1208 cc "74" of my youth had a 5-quart, dry-sump system, with a nifty horse-hair oil-filter... Yup. And they broke down anyway... AND, they had a swell drive-side main-bearing crankshaft "seal" being huge reverse acme threads on the crank, slinging oil BACK into the crankcase through the oversize "hole" in the block... A throwback to Hogs of the WWI era. Old Hogs don't actually LEAK... They DRIP in proper Harley fashion when leaned over on the jiffy-stand.
I miss that horseless-carriage technology... But I like the "family car" reliability of the new bikes... 
The manual for my 1957 Harley specified "Genuine Harley Davidson seasonal oil" which, if my old memory serves me, came in "Summer weight": about SAE  , "All-Season weight": around SAE 50, and "Winter weight": around SAE 20. No high-tech multi-weight stuff for uncle Harley... Only straight-numbered stuff, which Harley did NOT actually "number" on the cans.
That Summer oil was like weight gear-lube (except smelled SO much better...). It was much like "STP" or "Motor Honey" when poured (or, more properly OOZED) from the can. We usually threw in a half-quart of pure castor-oil too, just because Grand Dad did it that way. And it smelled SO good in that sweet blue cloud that followed our bikes.
These new-fangled bikes just don't smell right, but they run nice!
Ride safe,
Leo in Texas
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Post by rockynv on Sept 12, 2015 0:05:57 GMT -5
Leo,
The classics had the valve trains outside the engine block with tanks you had to at times pump up to get things started to supplied oil to drip over all those moving parts to lubricate them and keep the rusting down along with splatter on your leathers to keep them supple too.
The good old days when if you did not have oil dripping down the side of your bike you knew something was terribly wrong.
The Piaggio engines today have a 3,000 mile schedule for checking the engine oil level and a 6,250 mile oil change schedule. If you see the oil level drop enough to require adding some then you have a leak or other problem of some kind. These new tight spec engines do spoil you with their low maintenance and comparatively high output. 20 to 25 hp from a stock 250 cc scooter engine. Back in the day 1 hp for every 10 cc stock would have been unbelievable.
Winter oil was nothing special where I grew up. You just added 4 ounces of kerosene to each quart of regular engine oil or gear lube. In the spring you flushed it all out with kerosene and then put in fresh 30W or 40W being careful not the break the glass Quaker State bottles the oil came in. Even when the cans came out we would pour what was left in the glass bottles we had saved so we could cap them. With the glass bottles you could really see the difference in the oils when you bought them. The smell is nowhere near what it used to be either.
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Post by SylvreKat on Sept 12, 2015 5:49:18 GMT -5
The Piaggio engines today have a 3,000 mile schedule for checking the engine oil level and a 6,250 mile oil change schedule. Or in my Piggy's case, change every couple-some hundred miles...sigh. >'Kat, planning to add 20 more miles this morn, scootin' to the store breakfast--I mean, meeting |
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Post by rockynv on Sept 12, 2015 7:38:09 GMT -5
The Piaggio engines today have a 3,000 mile schedule for checking the engine oil level and a 6,250 mile oil change schedule. Or in my Piggy's case, change every couple-some hundred miles...sigh. >'Kat, planning to add 20 more miles this morn, scootin' to the store breakfast--I mean, meeting Your Little Piggy needs to go to the market more often so you can get your moneys worth from those oil changes. Right now weather radar doesn't look very promising and I wanted to ride out to Sefner this morning which would put a close to 100 Interstate miles on the bike. I already put 123 miles on the bike over the past three days now that I am riding again. |
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Post by shantyhag on Sept 12, 2015 11:17:42 GMT -5
OK, call me new fashioned, but here's the way we're doing all of our new scoots: we change the oil out immediately to Castrol GTX 10w-40 then give our customers a certificate to come back in at 300 miles where we give their first oil change for free. At that point we use Amsoil Formula 4-Stroke Synthetic 10W-40 Scooter Oil. It's not 20w-50, and BMS calls for 10w-40, but I've seen a lot of consensus that they're fairly interchangeable and the benefits of Amsoil are renown... here's what they have to say about... "Applications and Recommendations
AMSOIL Formula 4-Stroke Synthetic Scooter Oil is recommended for use wherever SAE 10W-40 motor oil is specified in air- and water-cooled four-stroke motorized scooter engines, transmissions and gearboxes that require the following:
API SG, SL/CF
JASO MA/MA2 (motorcycle wet clutch)
ISO-L-EMA2
Engine manufacturers include, but are not limited to, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha, Vespa, Aprilia, Piaggio, Benelli, Vento, Kymco, Tank and TGB." |
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Post by rockynv on Sept 13, 2015 10:04:36 GMT -5
Shanty - I use the Amsoil or Castrol 10-40 4T Synthetic as this is as you said what Piaggio recommends and at near to 30,000 miles the bike has been trouble free and 100% reliable.
A good 10-40 4T will be better than a cheap 20-50. The cheap 20-50 may barley meet the specs for high temperature breakdown while the premium 10-40 4T will be more resistant to this. Additionally the 10-40 will not get thicker than a 10 weight at freezing temps putting a lighter load on your battery, starter, oil pump and valve train during starts and warm ups in cold weather. With too high a lower number in cold weather you could end up riding off with little to no oil flowing to your crank shaft and valve train making for a lot of engine stress and wear in the first mile or so of riding.
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Post by bandito2 on Sept 14, 2015 23:21:29 GMT -5
Jeezo pete!! My Reflex scooters get oil changes at 4,000 mile intervals. But they are water cooled 250cc Jap bikes... which is probably why there is such a big difference in oil change frequency when compared to the 50cc - 150cc air cooled Chinascoots. Hmmm... I'm gonna rethink getting a Chinabike to fiddle around with. Not so sure now that I'd be willing to put up with such a high maintenance ride. Guess I'm spoiled with the high reliability / low maintenance Japanese bikes... even though they have a comparatively higher initial cost. You guys are scaring me.
I mean, my 2004 Reflex didn't need much in its first 20,000 miles except for the usual scheduled stuff, engine oil changes, coolant change X 1, air filter, brake fluid change X 1, gear oil change every 2 years and a rear tire that didn't need changing for 35,000 miles (12" car tire) (The prior 2 rear scooter tires lasted only about 6000 miles each for the first 12,000 miles), front tire changes about every 12,000 miles (13" scooter tires) Put new brake pads in X 1, Drive belt change at 12,000 miles. The only major thing was a stator replacement X 1 and a battery that went bad. Other than that, it was pretty much gas it up and ride the darn thing. So how much work on average is required for a similar 250cc class Chinese scooter for 20,000 miles?
BTW, it has been Mobil1 10-40 synthetic every 3000 to 4000 miles for my water cooled scooters.
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Post by rockynv on Sept 15, 2015 0:20:58 GMT -5
The Piaggio bike are scheduled for oil changes every 6,250 miles if you use the recommended 4T Synthetic MC Oil or up to twice a year the way I ride while my Lance 150 had its oil change schedule listed as every 500 miles. I went from 24 oil changes per year to only 2 and the Piaggio engine in my Aprilia takes about the same amount of oil as the Lance did. With the Japanese and Italian designs you get tighter tolerances and a full flow oil filter instead of just a screen which extends the time between required oil changes. The oil pumps in the Chinese bikes do not have enough capacity to support a full flow filter so they only have a screen for the most part.
Discussions about putting synthetic long life oil in a bike without a true filter are really moot since all the dirt and carbon will be recycled through the engine by a high detergent long life oil keeping all that corruption in suspension potentially doing more harm than good.
Anyways if you are a daily commuter who puts on 500 to 1,000 miles a month a Chinese bike requiring 1 or 2 oil changes per month may not be the best fit for your needs.
You have to consider the difference between low cost and value for each individuals circumstances. Some who ride recreationaly or seasonally and may only put on 500 to 1,500 miles a year would be a good fit with most Chinese scooters however the 6,000/12,000 mile per year rider really needs something better suited to that usage.
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Post by bandito2 on Sept 15, 2015 10:09:24 GMT -5
. Anyways if you are a daily commuter who puts on 500 to 1,000 miles a month a Chinese bike requiring 1 or 2 oil changes per month may not be the best fit for your needs. You have to consider the difference between low cost and value for each individuals circumstances. Some who ride recreationaly or seasonally and may only put on 500 to 1,500 miles a year would be a good fit with most Chinese scooters however the 6,000/12,000 mile per year rider really needs something better suited to that usage. True. That makes sense. Though I did not take any long trips this year, other years I have put mileage on that required more than one oil change. BTW, my 250cc Reflexes only have the screen for the oil. My Silverwing 600 on the other hand uses a full flow oil filter. |
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Post by rockynv on Sept 15, 2015 12:01:35 GMT -5
. Anyways if you are a daily commuter who puts on 500 to 1,000 miles a month a Chinese bike requiring 1 or 2 oil changes per month may not be the best fit for your needs. You have to consider the difference between low cost and value for each individuals circumstances. Some who ride recreationaly or seasonally and may only put on 500 to 1,500 miles a year would be a good fit with most Chinese scooters however the 6,000/12,000 mile per year rider really needs something better suited to that usage. True. That makes sense. Though I did not take any long trips this year, other years I have put mileage on that required more than one oil change. BTW, my 250cc Reflexes only have the screen for the oil. My Silverwing 600 on the other hand uses a full flow oil filter. Honda corrected the lack of a filter on the Big Wing which is a great thing. Gives your bike that extra protection that can make the difference between a 15,000 to 25,000 mile bike and a 50,000 to 100,000 mile one. Something for everyone! Ride safe!!! |
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Post by beenriding on Sept 16, 2015 8:31:32 GMT -5
Jeezo pete!! My Reflex scooters get oil changes at 4,000 mile intervals. But they are water cooled 250cc Jap bikes... which is probably why there is such a big difference in oil change frequency when compared to the 50cc - 150cc air cooled Chinascoots. Hmmm... I'm gonna rethink getting a Chinabike to fiddle around with. Not so sure now that I'd be willing to put up with such a high maintenance ride. Guess I'm spoiled with the high reliability / low maintenance Japanese bikes... even though they have a comparatively higher initial cost. You guys are scaring me. I mean, my 2004 Reflex didn't need much in its first 20,000 miles except for the usual scheduled stuff, engine oil changes, coolant change X 1, air filter, brake fluid change X 1, gear oil change every 2 years and a rear tire that didn't need changing for 35,000 miles (12" car tire) (The prior 2 rear scooter tires lasted only about 6000 miles each for the first 12,000 miles), front tire changes about every 12,000 miles (13" scooter tires) Put new brake pads in X 1, Drive belt change at 12,000 miles. The only major thing was a stator replacement X 1 and a battery that went bad. Other than that, it was pretty much gas it up and ride the darn thing. So how much work on average is required for a similar 250cc class Chinese scooter for 20,000 miles? BTW, it has been Mobil1 10-40 synthetic every 3000 to 4000 miles for my water cooled scooters. Where's the fun in that? My covers are off at least once a week to clean writing on the sparkplug and polish the dipstick. Factory says 1500mi /oil intervals. I go 800 + or -. Don't forget to change that pre-filter, it's got 500 mi on it!  |
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Post by rockynv on Sept 16, 2015 11:55:22 GMT -5
More fun riding and cleaning road dust and bugs off than in removing covers and such.
Many attachment points on my Lance wore out due to all the constant removing and reassembling for scheduled maintenance.
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Post by bandito2 on Sept 17, 2015 23:06:59 GMT -5
More fun riding and cleaning road dust and bugs off than in removing covers and such. Many attachment points on my Lance wore out due to all the constant removing and reassembling for scheduled maintenance. On another forum there was discussion about what would you do if you could influence scooter designers. Or maybe it was about if you could design a scooter, what would it be like... Anyway, something along that line. My input had to do with single or no tool removal of body panels for easier access to the engine and other parts for repairs/maintenance. The other thing was about easily changing body panels and possibly even wheels to change ones scooter from a basic commuter with top case, bag holder etc. to a touring package with attractive side cases and matching top case, taller windscreen & fog lights to a dual sport looking version with fog lights, off road style headlights, handsomely rugged body panels (used minimally), heavy duty side panniers, rear box and/or rear rack. Maybe even a sport version with more aggressive/sportier looking body panels and lighting. Of course each bike unit would include 12 volt outlets for GPS Etc. and USB outlets for recharging cell phones etc.... maybe a cup/bottle holder too. The basic bike unit would also come with a battery tender & variator tool as part of the "Tool kit" LED lighting to minimize electrical load. Anyway, all of this being able to be mounted/dismounted from the same bike with few or no tools. (for the body panels at least anyway) This way a person could ride several different styles of scooters without having to actually own that many.... just the extra body & lighting parts mainly. The tool free attachments would be reinforced and robust. I was thinking something like stainless steel draw latches with a ring or pin safety on the closure. (and a way to keep that from rattling) Or maybe some other positive tool free holding device that wouldn't easily degrade or deform. A friend had (maybe still has) a big blue Bombardier Spyder. I seem to recall that the body panels had hard plastic plugs that fit into rubber inserts somehow mounted to the frame. It wasn't exactly easy to get them off so you knew they were secure and yet they would not rattle against each other or against the mounting points. I thought it rather ingenious and wondered why more bikes didn't do it this way. OH wait! This thread is about the correct oil.... hmmm OK, just refer to the part where I talked about easy access for repair and maintenance and you would be able to get access behind that long & low street cruiser style covering and be able to put in the correct type and amount of oil..... whatever kind that may be. |
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, "All-Season weight": around SAE 50, and "Winter weight": around SAE 20. No high-tech multi-weight stuff for uncle Harley... Only straight-numbered stuff, which Harley did NOT actually "number" on the cans.
