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Post by spandi on Aug 20, 2014 12:46:51 GMT -5
I saw one of these last year in Washington D. C. and gave it the usual once-over. Nice machine, and for a 500 it didn't look big at all. High quality components, but the paint on the body panels had too much orange peel for my taste.  |
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Post by bnc on Aug 20, 2014 12:50:43 GMT -5
The only people I know who can ride WOT ride 50 cc and under bikes. I thought we were talking 100-125 cc and 400 cc bikes. My very ancient 1985 125 cc WOT would do nearly 60 mph. Given the speed limit on most city streets here is 25 mph I suspect I couldn't get away with many WOT rides for long.
I did not mean to suggest giving a non-aggressive driver a larger bike would make them aggressive, but I feel a person who on a small bike would ride it beyond his/her capabilities and ride on streets for which the bike is ill equipped is an aggressive driver and that would not go away with a larger bike. I also think people who tailgate are being aggressive and unsafe as is the the response to try to outrun them on an underpowered bike rather than pull over.
Regarding MSF, I only meant to indicate that in both single and multiple vehicle accidents, speed plays a big part, and energy of impact goes up with the square of the speed increase. They taught us that in driver ed as well as MSF. So if you can't go any faster, the impact energy is limited. If you can go faster, twice the speed, four times the impact energy.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 20, 2014 21:34:57 GMT -5
Besides within the few residential blocks surrounding ones home, most streets around that one would commute on are 40 to 55 mph roads with traffic flowing at least 5 mph above the posted. You go out in the more rural areas and most roads you would be traveling on are 50 to 65 mph with traffic flowing at 5 to 10 mph over the posted limit. Pulling over here in most instances means finding a parking lot or driveway entrance to sit out in for anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours so that's not really a valid option unless you are retired and even then in the Semi Tropical area I live in much of the year that can be brutal sitting out in the sun with effective and real temperatures at over 100 degrees.
The 100cc bike we were speaking of is tapped out at 45 unless there is an incline which then can limit you to sometimes only 25 to 30 mph. If you live in one of the areas where the commute to work or the store is on roads where the max is only 25 mph well that is not the norm and not what most will be facing.
My 150 while it would do 65 mph on a flat would bog down up hills, persistent grades and such so that you will many times build up a following of 10, 20 or more vehicles before you could find a spot to safely pull over to let them pass which could take over 10 minutes to get to so in the meantime cars and trucks will be crowding and squeezing past you on a 50 mph road with no shoulder or breakdown lane. This gets really bad when the only road to get from point A to B is a 50+ mph zone with Jersey barriers for 10 or so miles and no cutoffs.
None of this is safe and I saw 4 instances of folks on 150cc and under bikes that could not keep up with the flow of traffic on my 45 minute commute home today trying to hop residential zones having no other real choice to get to their destination. Always seems to be someone in a Ford SuperDuty pickup that will be the one pushing them along too.
A 100 to 150 cc bike where I and many others live is not the best choice nor are many of the low compression (8.5) 250cc bikes. It just not reasonable to expect to ride these roads on anything less than a 250 mid to high compression (10 to 12) bikes unless you are only going to stay inside you own residential area to maybe go to a newspaper machine near the entrance to the neighborhood or possibly a small market right on its border that you don't need to ride on a main street to get to.
Its not really aggressive to keep up with traffic and avoid a ticket for obstructing.
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Post by bnc on Aug 21, 2014 0:57:09 GMT -5
The idea that it is not possible to find a route suitable for the capabilities of a 100 cc bike is hard to believe when a guy named Wan documented on a blog his travels back and forth across the US on a 50 cc Honda Ruckus. His average speed being 25 mph.
I have never seen a situation like you describe so I won't say there are no such roads nor do I know that there are no other routes for which a 100 cc is suitable. I have ridden my 125 on roads that took me probably twice as long to get some places but it could be safely done and no one was on my bumper. I could have taken a faster road with a posted speed limit that I could in theory maintain but no way any one was at that speed limit and yes there were people on 125's on that road but it was their choice and they did have a choice.
I sometimes had to use Google maps creatively to get places but it can be done like by telling Google you are on a bicycle. It was kind of enjoyable actually. I discovered places off the beaten path I would never have known about if it weren't for the fact that I was not trying to get there fast.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 21, 2014 4:27:26 GMT -5
The idea that it is not possible to find a route suitable for the capabilities of a 100 cc bike is hard to believe when a guy named Wan documented on a blog his travels back and forth across the US on a 50 cc Honda Ruckus. His average speed being 25 mph. I have never seen a situation like you describe so I won't say there are no such roads nor do I know that there are no other routes for which a 100 cc is suitable. I have ridden my 125 on roads that took me probably twice as long to get some places but it could be safely done and no one was on my bumper. I could have taken a faster road with a posted speed limit that I could in theory maintain but no way any one was at that speed limit and yes there were people on 125's on that road but it was their choice and they did have a choice. I sometimes had to use Google maps creatively to get places but it can be done like by telling Google you are on a bicycle. It was kind of enjoyable actually. I discovered places off the beaten path I would never have known about if it weren't for the fact that I was not trying to get there fast. That's not practical when you work and live by a schedule. You have to plan well ahead alternative routes when you ride that way then having to deal with what ifs. What if there is a detour, what if the map was not accurate and the street I am planning on taking is only proposed what if I make a wrong turn. I have never seen that utopian community where you can without a lot of extra time and effort find a pure 25 mph route that does not take you far out of the way and lets face it the more miles you ride the more likely you are to be in an accident. Taking a 45 minute commute and turning it into a 1.5 to 2 ir more hour ride requires that you make some major adjustments too. If you work a second job which employer do you ask to slide your work schedule to accommodate this? I know some romanticize riding a 49cc cross country but that is just not practical or all its cracked up to be. And yes 40 years ago my fist bike was a French 49cc which I rode in New England and in the hill country never mind the mountains it could not many times even maintain 5 mph so you would have to get off and walk it up a hill with cars whizzing by you at 25 mph. Where I currently live to ride the way your talking if I needed to go to Tampa Florida I would have to skip the two major bridges and the causeway which are all 60 mph roads and turn a 8 to 10 mile ride into closer to a 100 mile round trip that would take well over 4 hours. Of course this also ignores that many times residential areas are more dangerous to ride in than on a state road or highway greatly increasing the chance that you'll get hit by someone exiting a driveway or blowing through a stop sign. Get the right sized bike for where you need to go without all this extra planning and you will save time and money along with be safer. Since I picked up the 250cc Aprilia there have been no questions as to which roads I can safely ride on or any need for creative planning or trying to stretch more hours into the day adding the extra safety hazard of riding tired. |
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Post by oldchopperguy on Aug 21, 2014 13:30:40 GMT -5
Gotta agree with Rockynv... Seven years ago I got my first scooter, a Chinese 150. I fixed all the "things Chinese" and got it running as fast, and as reliable as a 150 is likely to get... Then I spent several years trying to find ways to get around, which accommodated my scooter's limited performance.
THAT got OLD in a hurry.
Local surface-streets lately have turned into access roads to new freeways, and the once-35-45mph streets I used to use STILL have the same 35-45mph speed-limits, BUT... Traffic constantly runs 55 -70 on them.
For my individual needs, I have always like the flat-floor, step-through Chinese 150 style scoots best. Trouble is, they are about 30mph too slow for safely getting around this area. So I went on a hunt to find something used, affordable and as close to a 150 that I could find, which would still do better than 70mph.
I found it in the outdated Kymco Grandvista 250. That model is close to "indestructible" and will run forever... It will top 75mph and cruise at 65-70 with ease. It gives better gas mileage than my old 150 and it's nearly the same size and has the same feel in tight quarters as the old 150. The GEICO lizard even gives me full-coverage insurance for $112 a year! So if some no-taste cretin steals it, I can probably get another... LOL!
It IS a "dated" 250, being an older, 2-valve, carbureted design. It won't keep up with the REALLY frisky traffic (still 30mph too slow for that) but at least I finally CAN go most anywhere I want without TOO much worry about being rear-ended while running WOT. I say not TOO much worry, because last week we DID lose a fine local firefighter, husband and dad when his 250 scooter (running 65-70mph) got literally run-over by a commuter in a Ford Excursion doing the obligatory 95mph with surrounding commuter traffic.
And, public sentiment agrees with this dog-eat-dog mentality. The commuter-drivers, AND the police are quick to take the stand "if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch..." If you are naïve enough to ride anything that won't keep up, you get what you deserve... No mercy out there, folks.
During rush hour, drivers simply do NOT anticipate ANY vehicle to be running SLOWER than surrounding traffic. And THAT most often means near-100mph. When the driver of an SUV running in 80mph traffic, ticked-off and late for happy-hour... jackrabbits into the next lane, pedal-to-the-metal,  + and accelerating... and some hapless scooter-jockey is in that lane fifty-feet ahead, doing 70... Well, that's all she wrote for the scooter... or the car, or "whatever" is in the way. Sometimes, it's a semi, just pulled onto the freeway, doing about 45mph... WOO HOO! Then, it's all she wrote for the SUV! Every once in a while, there IS justice in the world.
Now Rockynv's Aprilia 250 WILL keep up, but my older Kymco taps out when traffic exceeds 80mph... And so do I... LOL!
As Clint Eastwood said: "A man's gotta know his limitations..." Yup...
I'm DEFINITELY too old and too slow for the crotch-rocket ride, but I still want to be able to go wherever I want to go, without becoming "road-kill". I'm just not yet ready to plan my route to accommodate the performance of my ride. Did that for more than 3 years, and didn't like it at all.
But, to each his own... That's what makes life interesting!
Whatever you ride, ride safe!
Leo in Texas |
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Post by bnc on Aug 21, 2014 14:01:22 GMT -5
What I meant is if I plan an extended trip or vacation like that guy Wan I do such planning and I have a GPS stuck on my windscreen.
Believe it or not, if my bike is not capable of the roads for a daily commute, I take public transportation. Around here there are a lot of wealthy older people (I would think that true of Florida too) but they complain so much to the police about fast drivers in the 25 mph zones that police are enforcing it. I don't dare go past about 30 mph even in my car. The seniors even managed to get a 35 mph street rezoned 25 mph so passing through this town you have to be careful because the towns on both sides are 35 mph on the same street.
Again, if you are on 25 mph streets, an accident won't be as bad as if you are going 65 mph on the freeway. The only people I knew personally who got killed on two wheels had it happen on the freeway. One was hit by a truck. Another the police report said he lost control and was hit by multiple vehicles southbound on the freeway.
I was almost in a fatal accident a few years ago. It was merging from one freeway to another at night. Going east bound on one freeway, the merge ramp going over the north/south freeway, then a shallow left turn onto the north/south freeway. I was in the blind spot of a Honda Prelude to my left and ahead of me. Remembering from MSF to stay out of the blind spot, I slowed down. Almost immediately, the Honda hit its brakes and swerved into my lane leaving me stopped behind his left rear by about a foot. We both stopped. I was standing on broken glass. Looking over the Honda, I could see a car had hit the right guard rail leaving the broken glass I was standing on, it then crossed the ramp and ended up nose first in the left guard rail with its lights out completely blocking the path of the Honda.
Coming from a smaller bike, I dropped back but if I had used the extra power of the sport bike and tried to pass him to get out of the blind spot, he would have knocked me over the right guard rail and it was straight down.
That is why I am not impressed with arguments that extra power will get you out of a spot. My experience is that that solution can also kill you.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Aug 21, 2014 14:11:58 GMT -5
Bnc,
No arguments with your thoughts. And Rockynv and I are not advocating "power to get you out of a spot". THAT would take HUNDREDS of horsepower. And, fighter-pilot reflexes. We're just wanting to be able to run with the traffic around us, rather than become rolling roadblocks.
The 200mph stunt-riders on the freeways are most certainly in equal danger to the too-slow scooters... Yup! Absolutely!
Leo
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Post by rockynv on Aug 22, 2014 12:44:51 GMT -5
You have to follow the MFS rules of looking ahead too. If you could not clearly see 12 seconds ahead then you were headed for trouble and already violating a more crucial rule than just staying out of the dead zone. You have to remember the zones of look ahead and observe those rules even when on the interstate.
Remember we never endorsed wildly jackrabbit jumping ahead, that has always been beyond what was stated which was to stay ahead of the flow of traffic and not be holding a line of 10, 20 or more cars up while going below the speed limit on an under powered bike as that is unsafe. With the correct bike you will be able to keep ahead of traffic and avoid this.
We have a rider who was on a 500cc scooter going less than 20 mph and got bumped off in a mild collision. He was a few weeks in a coma which was a good thing as they had done a lot to ease the pain from the broken hip, broken jaw, broken ribs, leg wrist, shoulder, other arm and one foot split between the toes completely up past the instep by the time he woke up.
Yes its more dramatic when someone wipes out at 70+ mph however people get killed or crippled for life even at speeds below 20 mph sometimes even at a full stop when they lose their balance. A man not quite middle aged man died yesterday at a Hank Williams Jr concert from just someone hip bumping him so he lost his balance and hit his head on the floor. Children get injured and killed even in pedal bicycle and tricycle accidents to where speeds are far below 25 mph.
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Post by psychedelicode on Aug 22, 2014 13:01:00 GMT -5
Such a great thread. Thanks alot for all the input. Im going to show the lil lady this when I get home. If im lucky and the burg is still available, WE..lol...may be able to sway her xD.
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Post by psychedelicode on Aug 22, 2014 13:05:22 GMT -5
Btw what do you call a burgman trike? An Iceburg...lol
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Post by oldchopperguy on Aug 22, 2014 13:34:42 GMT -5
Psychedelicode,
The idea of a Burgman trike is certainly interesting! Might be a little pricey to make, but the finished product would be pretty slick! Sort of a "Triburgy"... LOL!
I hope you do get the ride you want, and be careful while you enjoy it. Danger is a very "nebulous" thing... My first experience with a fatal bike accident was in 1962, when I was 16. A pal and I were on the shore of Lake Michigan in Chicago, straddling our Harley choppers, engines off... We were waddling along on them, hitting on some girls when my friend lost his footing, and "fell over".
He hit his head on the concrete and just laid there. We all thought it was ridiculous, his faking being hurt to impress the girls. I pulled the chopper off him, and close examination showed that sadly, he was dead.
No blood, not a sound... Simply a 1 mph impact to his head in just the wrong place. He would have been killed just as surely if he had been simply walking, without the bike, and took the same fall.
You should always be careful, but don't let fear of what might happen keep you from living life. You're just as likely to be terminated by a 12-year-old drive-by-shooting you in a gang-initiation as you are to crash your bike. If you'd let yourself dwell on that, you'd surely wreck while trying to watch every car as it goes by to see if a gun is poking out at you.
Life's what it is... No more, no less... Even 100 years goes by VERY fast... So, enjoy it while you have it!
Ride safe, and enjoy that wind in your face!
Leo in Texas
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Post by rockynv on Aug 22, 2014 21:40:40 GMT -5
Such a great thread. Thanks alot for all the input. Im going to show the lil lady this when I get home. If im lucky and the burg is still available, WE..lol...may be able to sway her xD. Just remember keep your most critical safety device engaged all the time when riding regardless of what steed your on. You yourself alert and aware are the most critical safety device on your bike. This is probably as good a time as any to repeat the final advice they gave us during MSF Training. Review your coarse book at least annually to weed out false remembrances, reinforce what you do remember correctly and to stay on track to ride safe. |
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Post by bnc on Aug 23, 2014 5:01:41 GMT -5
The 12 second rule applies in daylight scanning in front of you. I am talking about at night where the MSF rule is not to over ride the headlights. The Honda saw the vehicle in their path, braked, but the unexpected swerve into my lane created a danger in a fraction of a second.
Having a bike fast enough to keep up with traffic might prevent irritating other drivers or perhaps being rear ended but you are less safe in terms of the laws of physics, statistics and other drivers.
From physics, double the speed, quadruple the impact energy.
From statistics,
From other drivers,
According to NHTSA, 49% of motorcycle deaths were from being hit by other vehicles but of that 49%, 43% were head on or from the side, only 6% were from the rear.
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Post by SylvreKat on Aug 23, 2014 5:25:54 GMT -5
Again bnc, you aren't with the point of this thread.  Here's another thought for you, psyche, which bnc's situation made me think of. A Burgy has a lot more bike and frame to it than a little 150cc. So if that soccer mom decides to swerve in front of you, it can take more impact, and better shield you. Sort of like my Taurus wagon can take a lot more head-on impact before things get to me the driver, than something like a Mini Cooper or Smart Car. Point that out to your lady, too. For real time--when I told Mom I was getting a scooter, she of course was not happy, imaging her only daughter dead in a ditch/under a car/off a cliff ('cause yeah, KS is full of cliffs). After my friend drove my full-size Piaggio home, the first thing Mom said was, "Oh, it's much bigger than I thought it would be!" I asked later if she felt better now, having seen it. Well, of course she still pictured me dead any number of ways, but yes the larger size did help lessen those fears...a little bit. She IS the Mom, after all.  "Iceburg"--FUHnee!!!  And very clever! >'Kat |
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+ and accelerating... and some hapless scooter-jockey is in that lane fifty-feet ahead, doing 70... Well, that's all she wrote for the scooter... or the car, or "whatever" is in the way. Sometimes, it's a semi, just pulled onto the freeway, doing about 45mph... WOO HOO! Then, it's all she wrote for the SUV! Every once in a while, there IS justice in the world.
