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Post by spandi on Oct 22, 2013 20:44:36 GMT -5
I wish I could find that post. I looked, but to no avail. It involves using a big syringe( like a turkey baster, and you force it in backwards through the bleeder screw. You need to open the master culinder, and remove the fluid with a paper towel- and force the fluid( a little at a time) through the system Periodically soaking up the dirty fluid from the master until it runs clean. It's a pretty neat way to replace all the fluid. This it? itistheride.boards.net/thread/470?page=1 |
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Post by rockynv on Oct 22, 2013 20:48:19 GMT -5
Vacuum bleeders are cheap enough now and I don't know how I did without one all those years now that I finally got one.
Can't imagine a tech dumb enough to open up the sealed system on a scooters brakes to change a tire but that is what the owner of the shop set up when he put untrained mechanics to work on bikes.
To change a bike tire you need to know about installing mufflers, swing arm extensions, brakes, speedometer drives, adjusting front wheel bearings, releasing/setting stake-on lock nuts, cotter pins, castle nuts, etc. Depending on the tire machine they have they also may need to know how to properly remove and replace the brake rotors and potentially how to press out and back in wheel bearings.
Tire changes done on a bike for pay are not something that should be done someone without real training as a mechanic as there is too much that can go wrong.
Moving foward figure at least 2 hours for a front and back tire change and a minimum shop fee of $65 an hour. The bike should come back with at least the rim and brake components cleaned up (if you don't have time for them to wash the whole bike) and with new valve stems, tire valves and dust caps installed.
A good shop will have you sign a check list outlining the condition of the bike and any damaged areas that are pre-existing before they take possesion of it. Beware of any shop that does not follow the best practice of inspecting the condition of the bike in your presence before accepting it for any service. A good shop will also do a basic wash down of the bike after servicing it
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Post by sailracer on Oct 22, 2013 21:10:32 GMT -5
I wish I could find that post. I looked, but to no avail. It involves using a big syringe( like a turkey baster, and you force it in backwards through the bleeder screw. You need to open the master culinder, and remove the fluid with a paper towel- and force the fluid( a little at a time) through the system Periodically soaking up the dirty fluid from the master until it runs clean. It's a pretty neat way to replace all the fluid. This it? itistheride.boards.net/thread/470?page=1 Yep thats it, I found it with a youtube search |
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Post by sailracer on Oct 22, 2013 21:15:21 GMT -5
 Vacuum bleeders are cheap enough now and I don't know how I did without one all those years now that I finally got one. Can't imagine a tech dumb enough to open up the sealed system on a scooters brakes to change a tire but that is what the owner of the shop set up when he put untrained mechanics to work on bikes. To change a bike tire you need to know about installing mufflers, swing arm extensions, brakes, speedometer drives, adjusting front wheel bearings, releasing/setting stake-on lock nuts, cotter pins, castle nuts, etc. Depending on the tire machine they have they also may need to know how to properly remove and replace the brake rotors and potentially how to press out and back in wheel bearings. Tire changes done on a bike for pay are not something that should be done someone without real training as a mechanic as there is too much that can go wrong. Moving foward figure at least 2 hours for a front and back tire change and a minimum shop fee of $65 an hour. The bike should come back with at least the rim and brake components cleaned up (if you don't have time for them to wash the whole bike) and with new valve stems, tire valves and dust caps installed. A good shop will have you sign a check list outlining the condition of the bike and any damaged areas that are pre-existing before they take possesion of it. Beware of any shop that does not follow the best practice of inspecting the condition of the bike in your presence before accepting it for any service. A good shop will also do a basic wash down of the bike after servicing it All that and BALANCED too. I paid $270.00 for my two Michelins MOUNTED AND BALANCED. Although I do my own work, I leave the rubber to the pros.
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Post by SylvreKat on Oct 22, 2013 21:27:41 GMT -5
I just had a thought after reading rocky's post about changing a tire you need to know all that blah-blah-blah.
Will motorcycle mechanics know all that? Is changing a cycle tire pretty much the same as a scooter's? Will they know all that blah-blah if they're certified on motorcycles? Or do I need to figure out how to get my scoot over to Martin City and the Yami/Piggy dealer? We're talking one mile (cycle guys) vs maybe 15 or more miles (scooter guys). Also the diff between relatively light traffic vs "45" mph four-lane++ busy busy street.
Or will supplying my Piaggio shop manual plus their cycle experience equate to knowing all that blah-blah-blah?
>'Kat
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Post by dirkgently on Oct 22, 2013 21:30:01 GMT -5
I wish I could find that post. I looked, but to no avail. It involves using a big syringe( like a turkey baster, and you force it in backwards through the bleeder screw. You need to open the master culinder, and remove the fluid with a paper towel- and force the fluid( a little at a time) through the system Periodically soaking up the dirty fluid from the master until it runs clean. It's a pretty neat way to replace all the fluid. This it? itistheride.boards.net/thread/470?page=1That's a clever solution. Looks like i'm making a trip to find a syringe |
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Post by spandi on Oct 22, 2013 21:35:33 GMT -5
I just had a thought after reading rocky's post about changing a tire you need to know all that blah-blah-blah. Will motorcycle mechanics know all that? Is changing a cycle tire pretty much the same as a scooter's? Will they know all that blah-blah if they're certified on motorcycles? Or do I need to figure out how to get my scoot over to Martin City and the Yami/Piggy dealer? We're talking one mile (cycle guys) vs maybe 15 or more miles (scooter guys). Also the diff between relatively light traffic vs "45" mph four-lane++ busy busy street. Or will supplying my Piaggio shop manual plus their cycle experience equate to knowing all that blah-blah-blah? >'Kat Some folks have a tendency to over analyze stuff. I put on a new set of Pirelli tires with no problems at all. Just take your time and do the job right. |
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Post by scootnwinn on Oct 22, 2013 23:01:40 GMT -5
Kat scooters are motorcycles and yes its all very similar though not identical. Anyway to all the hang the shop guys...
You all want the Government to fix this and close the shop or whatever "make them pay" basically. The guy has a Chinese scooter that we now find out still had the Chinese "brake fluid" in it. 400 km is not long enough for real brake fluid to become full of dirt and black. Was it really the shop? (No offense to OP meant just a different perspective being offered here). So basically everyone has decided it's the shop's fault though, they have never seen the shop, they assume the bike was in perfect condition but have never seen the bike. It looks like the bike may not have had the famous "PDI" where every fluid is replaced. The bike in question was likely sold by a manufacturer that has the same BBB rating as the mafia. Now then the guy wants to call the AG ( I know maybe he doesn't but someone thinks he should) does he report the manufacturer or the shop? He has already touched the bike now and given evidence in a public forum that makes it seem like maybe there wasn't even proper fluid in the system. Will the govt fix it? How often do they really succeed at fixing anything? Less headache and down time fixing it yourself.
Now if the guy said I have no mechanical ability ( this is for you Kat). I would have suggested he take it to another shop not fix it himself. That might have made a case for him if a reputable, certified, third party could have determined it was incorrectly done. Certainly would have been difficult to determine if it was them or the substandard fluid... Any way as far as reporting people. It should be done with great care and certainty. Did the shop do a great job with customer service? Maybe not. Should they have to flush and bleed the brakes on a brand new scooter? No it should be fresh and clean already. Would any one really put old fluid in the brake system trying to fix it? Unlikely. Disconnect brakelines to change a tire? Unlikely.
So anyway sorry to ruffle all your feathers. To the OP if you haven't done a full PDI on the bike now is the time or your brakes won't be the only thing that fails. I really do wish you well but the best advice for any Chinese scooter owner is to get some tools follow the famous pdi and keep on top of everything with the attention to detail of a an aircraft mechanic. You are riding a bike that needs you to know every inch of her and demands you pay attention. I say this not to shame you but to encourage you. I prefer to hear about your 1000's of happy miles and not a painful crash... Be good now and please don't report me to the AG for disagreeing...
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Post by excuzzzeme2 on Oct 22, 2013 23:12:51 GMT -5
Sealing a bead is easier if you remember to take the valve stem core out first. If all else fails use starting fluid and a match!  |
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Post by shalomdawg on Oct 23, 2013 0:46:29 GMT -5
howdy, i don't know if i'm off topic, but i had a flat yesterday and put a plug in to get to the shop where they said thy'd put a new one on for labor of 50 bucks. they want a lot for the tire itself- 150-70-14 size @ 130 bucks so total is 180. that's for the michelin city grip.
lotsa miles and smiles to ya
ken
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Post by sailracer on Oct 23, 2013 2:52:27 GMT -5
howdy, i don't know if i'm off topic, but i had a flat yesterday and put a plug in to get to the shop where they said thy'd put a new one on for labor of 50 bucks. they want a lot for the tire itself- 150-70-14 size @ 130 bucks so total is 180. that's for the michelin city grip. lotsa miles and smiles to ya ken Is it a rear tire? More labor intensive than a front. I live on the East coast, and you, on the west. I don't know if things are a little more expensive out there or a little less expensive. Since I paid $270.00 for 2 Michelin city grips,total (that was tires, mount and balance, and new stems. I find that $180 for a single tire does'nt sound too bad. |
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Post by sailracer on Oct 23, 2013 3:53:42 GMT -5
Kat scooters are motorcycles and yes its all very similar though not identical. Anyway to all the hang the shop guys... You all want the Government to fix this and close the shop or whatever "make them pay" basically. The guy has a Chinese scooter that we now find out still had the Chinese "brake fluid" in it. 400 km is not long enough for real brake fluid to become full of dirt and black. Was it really the shop? (No offense to OP meant just a different perspective being offered here). So basically everyone has decided it's the shop's fault though, they have never seen the shop, they assume the bike was in perfect condition but have never seen the bike. It looks like the bike may not have had the famous "PDI" where every fluid is replaced. The bike in question was likely sold by a manufacturer that has the same BBB rating as the mafia. Now then the guy wants to call the AG ( I know maybe he doesn't but someone thinks he should) does he report the manufacturer or the shop? He has already touched the bike now and given evidence in a public forum that makes it seem like maybe there wasn't even proper fluid in the system. Will the govt fix it? How often do they really succeed at fixing anything? Less headache and down time fixing it yourself. Now if the guy said I have no mechanical ability ( this is for you Kat). I would have suggested he take it to another shop not fix it himself. That might have made a case for him if a reputable, certified, third party could have determined it was incorrectly done. Certainly would have been difficult to determine if it was them or the substandard fluid... Any way as far as reporting people. It should be done with great care and certainty. Did the shop do a great job with customer service? Maybe not. Should they have to flush and bleed the brakes on a brand new scooter? No it should be fresh and clean already. Would any one really put old fluid in the brake system trying to fix it? Unlikely. Disconnect brakelines to change a tire? Unlikely. So anyway sorry to ruffle all your feathers. To the OP if you haven't done a full PDI on the bike now is the time or your brakes won't be the only thing that fails. I really do wish you well but the best advice for any Chinese scooter owner is to get some tools follow the famous pdi and keep on top of everything with the attention to detail of a an aircraft mechanic. You are riding a bike that needs you to know every inch of her and demands you pay attention. I say this not to shame you but to encourage you. I prefer to hear about your 1000's of happy miles and not a painful crash... Be good now and please don't report me to the AG for disagreeing... paying attention to every detail as if it were an aircraft, should be a common practice for every vehicle you get into. Wheter it has 2-4-or18 wheels |
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Post by rockynv on Oct 23, 2013 4:08:58 GMT -5
I just had a thought after reading rocky's post about changing a tire you need to know all that blah-blah-blah. Will motorcycle mechanics know all that? Is changing a cycle tire pretty much the same as a scooter's? Will they know all that blah-blah if they're certified on motorcycles? Or do I need to figure out how to get my scoot over to Martin City and the Yami/Piggy dealer? We're talking one mile (cycle guys) vs maybe 15 or more miles (scooter guys). Also the diff between relatively light traffic vs "45" mph four-lane++ busy busy street. Or will supplying my Piaggio shop manual plus their cycle experience equate to knowing all that blah-blah-blah? >'Kat Basically the same process as a motorcycle but not like a car where you put it on a lift and simple remove a few lug nuts. You are partially disassembling the bike itself when you change a tire on a motorcycle or scooter with the exception of some of the old school Vespa and Lambretta which were made with tires on rims with lug nuts that go on from one side just like on a passenger car. A lot of folks here have ruined their front wheel bearings, brakes and speedometer drives attempting to change their own front tires. Others have also messed up their rear swing arm extensions, exhausts and rear brakes as it requires some expertise to do it right without causing problems down the road. Some who do have problems later on don't even realize that they caused the problem themselves because they figured it out on their own by trial and error and were not trained in industry standard best practice so they got things wrong the first time and didn't know what to look for to determine if they had damaged anything. Last two tires I had put on my scooter were done by the local "Big Bike" shop. They actually had prices on name brand tires that were close enough to the Internet Super Stores to warrant buying locally from them and followed best practice when receiving a bike for service, etc. Their shop rate is $  per hour but they stand behind their work and all work is double checked by a service adviser who actually road tests the bikes before servicing and after the mechanic is done. They charge about 1/2 hour labor for a tire change. The also put every bike through their detailing department for a quick wash too before giving it back to you. I had a 25% off discount coupon that made it not worth the bother to take the wheels off myself and have the new tires mounted and spun balanced at Cycle Gear. The price came out about the same at the dealer with the coupon as if I had bought the tires on-line and did most of the work myself so I just rode down to the dealer, dropped off the bike while I did a little local shopping having lunch while I was at it and they were all done, ready and waiting by the time I had finished eating. If I had done it myself it would have involved taking everything off, packing up the van, driving to a tire shop at 10 mpg in my van, dropping the tire off, waiting, driving home and then spending the next few hours putting the bike back together, road testing and cleaning up facing having to take the 10 mpg van to work if I didn't have the time to finish up or if my degenerative bone disease started to flair up so I was unable to finish the job. Loose most of a day compared to stopping by the bike shop on my lunch break or on my way home from work and having it done in one shot without loosing much if any personal time at all. |
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Post by dirkgently on Oct 23, 2013 10:13:55 GMT -5
The guy has a Chinese scooter that we now find out still had the Chinese "brake fluid" in it. 400 km is not long enough for real brake fluid to become full of dirt and black. Was it really the shop? I feel like this is going to become a theme, but what the heck. What I actually said was ~ "When I took scooter back with no brakes, the shop took it back and looked into what was wrong. They said they then flushed all the brakes to try and figure out if that was the problem. I then flushed them myself and pulled a great deal of black crap out of the rear cylinder especially." SO - I would say logic dictates they either A) Did flush my brakes and used dirty fluid or B) Did not flush my brakes and lied to get me to leave. Those are actually the only 2 options and either makes the shop a shady place. At this point there is no rational argument in favor of the shop being actually good.
I get it though. You're upset about anyone "running to the government" for help. A lack of self sufficiency or something like that bothers you. And that's fine. You're entirely entitled to be upset by that - or anything else obviously. I'd just like to point out that I said I'd probably just drop a note to the BBB with my concerns. They're a private organization and should, I expect, be more acceptable to you. Though I will acknowledge that I think it's probably not outside the realm of reasonable to warn other people that this particular shop seems to be populated by the liars, the incompetent, or both. Seems only fair other people should get a heads up, right?
Just trying to keep things accurate up in here. |
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Post by RapidJim on Oct 23, 2013 10:58:07 GMT -5
I was going to just let this go and not comment any further until I reread the entire thread. So here is my ASE and NRI Certified Master Mechanic, Business Owner and over 45 years of experience opinion. The process of removing and re mounting a tire on a car rim vrs a scooter/motorcycle rim is basically the same proceedure, when it is off the vehicle (except for rim locked dirt bike tires). The difference is the proceedures of getting the rim off the vehicle. Simple process on a car, jack it up, remove the lug nuts and pull it off. Scooters/Motorcycles are not so simple. Where the front is concerned, it is not all that complicated or time consuming. If you do not have a proper lifting device, you may have to remove the front fender. Support the scooter on the center stand, slide a floor jack, motorcycle lift jack or similar under the scooter (towards the front) to push the weight onto the rear tire. Then simply remove the axel nut, pull the axel out slowly so the spacer drops off, then hold the tire up and finish pulling out the axel. Slowly drop the tire down, holding the speedo puck in place, when it clears, pull the speedo puck off and let it hang, Then finish dropping the tire down so the brake disk clears the caliper and pads. Depending on clearance, the front fender may need to come off. The brake pads will stay in the caliper, no need to mess with them. Reassembly is just the reverse, just a bit tricky getting everything aligned. The complete job should take just under an hour, including a test ride, to make sure the speedo and brake works. My charge for on the bike removal and mounting of the front only is $60.00. Now the rear is much more involved and is not easy to do without a bike lift. Doing the rear, basically requires removal of the exhaust, brake caliper (if equiped), removal of the motor case to rear axel brace, if dual shocks the right side shock has to come off, and sometimes removal of the rear fender. Also, removing the axel nut can be tricky without and inpact gun. If the scooter is equiped with drum brakes instead of disk, the brake accuating cable may need to be loosened. With the proper tools and equipment from start to finish runs just over an hour. Once again, when finished, you need to check for proper fit, readjustment of the rear brake, if equiped with drum brake, check for exhaust leak and test ride My standard charge is $  .00. Now above and beyond the mechanical work, the most important part is that the shop does a test ride after the work is done to ensure that everything is working and it is safe to ride. Unlike a car, you only have two wheels and nothing around you to protect you. If this shop would have done a test ride they would have known the scooter's brake system did not work properly. Since they did the complete tire job, they could have been liable if the customer would have been involved in an accident due to a non working brake system after they did the work. Jim |
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