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Post by kurmyt on Apr 12, 2013 23:09:27 GMT -5
First used scoot purchased last fall...just getting warm enough for Season 1 of Fun. It's a JMStar 150...looks like a Phantom. Sat outside for two years before someone else bought it and got it running well. I took it out a couple of times in November.
Noticed dim lights at night. I'm barely a novice on electrical, but here's what I have figured out. Lights only come on when running.
It's a new battery...reading high 14s when running. Lights read 5.7 when running...when braking they raise to 6.7. I grounded against frame and same readings.
I've got all the wiring unwrapped. Checked a few solders where grounds split off. Nothing visible that I have seen yet as being bad.
Checked a few other lights and the horn, and they are all 12+.
Should I just keeping checking grounds for something bad? Or might it be something else?
Thanks for the help.
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Post by skuttadawg on Apr 13, 2013 0:06:38 GMT -5
May need a need voltage regulator
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Post by justbuggin2 on Apr 13, 2013 0:17:39 GMT -5
check the connectors that hook to the battery the chinese then to over crimp the ends and cut the wire making bad connections and trace the grounds to the frame and clean any paint or rust form where they connect and just go through the wiring makeing sure all the connections are good and tight
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Post by chihuahuas on Apr 13, 2013 7:28:31 GMT -5
The Headlamp gets raw AC voltage from the stator. this is cut off at a preset level by a zener diode's reverse bias function inside the voltage regulator.
Normally a lamp will burn bright. If it seems not so bright, the culprit can be the regulator. The cutoff voltage is somehow too low.
Plug in a new one and see.
Remember the AC voltage feeding the lamp is crude. It is not a perfect sine-wave. It is so crude in fact, some meters won't digest the correct reading.
AC meters use RMS root mean squared
----------------------------------------------------quote Wiki----------- (wiki): "In mathematics, the root mean square (abbreviated RMS or rms), also known as the quadratic mean, is a statistical measure of the magnitude of a varying quantity. It is especially useful when variates are positive and negative, e.g., sinusoids. RMS is used in various fields, including electrical engineering." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scooter AC is Halfwave so RMS ain't going to work....
So don't believe the meter. Use the lamp brightness as a gauge.
one way to see if the lamp is burning bright is to attach it to the battery as a bench mark test. Then connect it to AC harness. see the difference.
Another aspect of the stator/magnet power system is it won't produce power above it design. Meaning if you add a brighter bulb, the bulb will show low voltage when it is on because it only receiving so many watts of power. If you add a bigger bulb it will still light but it will be Dim. Because it only has so much power to available from the stator.
This is what i call Stator saturation. at 65 watts max output, the stator is a full blast. If you ask it for 100 watts it won't burn out. It simply self regulates itself by saturation. Flux saturation. This is a cool way these little coils work and not burn out. The are self protecting by design.
You have to audit you system and see if you are over budget on power. Let's sat your brake light is stuck on. Thats 20 watts. Tail light is 10 watts, Headlight is 35 watts. Thats 75 watts and you are over budget. You need to replace the tail light with LED to redirect power to the headlight.
It is all power management. More power to headlight means you take it from somewhere else.
You can run a 50 watt headlamp if you changeout the taillight to LED. But you can start a fire in the housing if it overheats. So you have to think it out good and Happy Scoot'n'n
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Post by kurmyt on Apr 13, 2013 8:28:09 GMT -5
Well I'll hope for a grounding issue and move from there to r/r. Away we go...
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Post by kurmyt on Apr 13, 2013 12:57:57 GMT -5
[replyingto=kurmyt]kurmyt[/replyingto]Well...I was following a video from YouTube on testing regulator. Red wire from battery is fine. Yellow wire reads right around 12v AC. White wire reads 6.7ish which is what I get from lights when brakes are on. Bad regulator?
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Post by justbuggin2 on Apr 13, 2013 18:19:06 GMT -5
you need to test your stator first to make sure it is putting out enough
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Post by gy6girl on Apr 13, 2013 19:18:05 GMT -5
Could be the cheap chinese light bulbs as well, unless it's something new.
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Post by tvnacman on Apr 13, 2013 19:27:19 GMT -5
The Headlamp gets raw AC voltage from the stator. this is cut off at a preset level by a zener diode's reverse bias function inside the voltage regulator. Normally a lamp will burn bright. If it seems not so bright, the culprit can be the regulator. The cutoff voltage is somehow too low. Plug in a new one and see. Remember the AC voltage feeding the lamp is crude. It is not a perfect sine-wave. It is so crude in fact, some meters won't digest the correct reading. AC meters use RMS root mean squared ----------------------------------------------------quote Wiki----------- (wiki): "In mathematics, the root mean square (abbreviated RMS or rms), also known as the quadratic mean, is a statistical measure of the magnitude of a varying quantity. It is especially useful when variates are positive and negative, e.g., sinusoids. RMS is used in various fields, including electrical engineering." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scooter AC is Halfwave so RMS ain't going to work.... So don't believe the meter. Use the lamp brightness as a gauge. one way to see if the lamp is burning bright is to attach it to the battery as a bench mark test. Then connect it to AC harness. see the difference. Another aspect of the stator/magnet power system is it won't produce power above it design. Meaning if you add a brighter bulb, the bulb will show low voltage when it is on because it only receiving so many watts of power. If you add a bigger bulb it will still light but it will be Dim. Because it only has so much power to available from the stator. This is what i call Stator saturation. at 65 watts max output, the stator is a full blast. If you ask it for 100 watts it won't burn out. It simply self regulates itself by saturation. Flux saturation. This is a cool way these little coils work and not burn out. The are self protecting by design. You have to audit you system and see if you are over budget on power. Let's sat your brake light is stuck on. Thats 20 watts. Tail light is 10 watts, Headlight is 35 watts. Thats 75 watts and you are over budget. You need to replace the tail light with LED to redirect power to the headlight. It is all power management. More power to headlight means you take it from somewhere else. You can run a 50 watt headlamp if you changeout the taillight to LED. But you can start a fire in the housing if it overheats. So you have to think it out good and Happy Scoot'n'n very well said , however I prefer to go with low hanging furit . I'm willing to bet that the switches are riddled with dirty contacts . I would spray the switches with WD40 and switch them for a good 10 or 15 minuets till the WD40 spray comes out of the switch clean . Wipe them down and spray them clean with air in a can (keyboard spray ) . If that does not work unplug the stator plug and take voltage readings from the yellow and white wire to ground , test at idle then again at 5000 rpm . check the plugs at the switch hi/low and if you have another switch on the right handel bar that has effect on your running lights check that as well . John
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Post by kurmyt on Apr 22, 2013 21:46:44 GMT -5
Well...the new regulator improved things just a teeny tiny bit...but now maybe I have better isolated the problem. I'm getting nothing off the yellow wire. When it is unplugged from regulator, I'm getting low-to-mid 40s AC off the white wire, and zip off the yellow. That's most likely a stator issue?
And if so...I haven't gotten anything apart yet (at least until I pick up a flywheel puller)...but assuming I have a 6 or 8 pole now, is it worth upgrading to 11-pole? I don't have a desire to do a ton with changing lights beyond maybe something brighter in front. And I have this brand spankin' new regulator that probably isn't compatible with 11-pole. But lessons learned along the way.
Or I just take it to a guy and pay him to do it...but what's the fun in that?
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Post by skuttadawg on Apr 22, 2013 22:44:43 GMT -5
Yes an 11 pole upgrade would need a matching regulator . My tail light went out on my Magnum and was a good excuse to get an 1157 LED instead of 1157 light bulb . It has dual 35watt bulbs and brightens and dims with RPM changes and also would dim when brakes applied . With LED it did have a tad more brightness . You can also replace the running and dash lights with LEDs . If you opt to use LED blinkers it will require a matching relay for them .
I am so lucky my Echarm has a 12 pole stator and DC headlights that always stay the same level of brightness . My old TaoTao was barely above a candle and no good for late night rides in the country .
There is the option of HID headlight(s) but costly and more than just a bulb swap . The do put out more lumens but the blueish hue blinds and glares to me as I prefer a slight yellow hue with my bad eyes
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Post by kurmyt on Apr 23, 2013 7:25:25 GMT -5
[replyingto=skuttadawg]skuttadawg[/replyingto]Thanks for the confirmation. I'm just gonna stick with the 8-pole for now and some LED taillights. I'm out on the burbs and so the few miles I need to do on non-lighted roads are pretty low traffic areas. I don't like the HID lights, either.
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Post by chihuahuas on Apr 23, 2013 10:12:40 GMT -5
Here is my experience with Headlights on scooters.
I had an original Tomas 50cc 2 stroke moped. It had no battery. It had a 35watt headlight. I added a 35/35 watt car sealed beam to the front. It worked great. I ducked taped it on. I got the lamp at Advanced Auto. this scooter/moped soon reached it's "end of service life" and was retired.
Some time later I got a 50cc China scoot from a pawn shop. $235. I pushed it home. After redoing the belt/variator setup I ran this thing 12000 miles. Along the way I put the 35/35 watt headlight on it from the Tomas. It was OK. I still wanted more light.
I decided to put a 55/65 watt 6x7" car headlight on the scoot. I got the power from the tail light. I used a LED tail light . This freed up some power to make the 55/65 watt work. This worked fine because I wasn't running a battery.
I was getting 55 watts at idle and 65 watts up off idle.
This headlamp mounted to the front of the scooter looked Mad Max. Everyone seemed to like it. Cops even liked it. It was my trade mark.
Ok so the time came to make a decision. The scoot had reached the end of it's service life. I was going to scrap it and get a New one from Italy.
Then I realized a New Scooter isn't any fun cause you cant mess with it. I would wreck the value of such a fine machine bu moding it. So I looked at the old china scoot and said it is time you gave something back. Research Baby. Your a Guinea Pig now.
So off with the engine and on with 80ccBBK+ new crank+ all the Jazz.
Off with the headlight and On with an HID.
The HID project was involved. It included a Stator Mod, a new regulator, a rewire of the basic feed points to the battery. And testing. It also involved a fabrication of the headlight assembly. A new lens setup and fitting the new lamp into lens assembly and setting focal point. Setting beam pattern. Gluing it all together. And more testing.
The project has advanced to this stage:
stator rewire to full wave. (completed) Add fullwave regulator/rectifier (complete) rewire basic circuits for all DC electrics. (complete) Fabricate Headlight lens, reflector HID assembly. (complete)
Testing Phase. observations. 1. the light is extremely bright. It is brighter than expected. It is so bright I decided to add a daytime Headlight 30 watt halogen so not to have to use HID when not necessary.
There is also a High Voltage aspect. I don't run it wet. If it is raining I don't run it. 18000 volts dancing around can be a problem.
This setup seems to wear on the battery. To soon to tell but I suspect the battery life is shortened by alot. Still testing.
There doesn't seem to be interference to the gps unit. ( from the high voltage) (high speed switching power supply) The gps works fine mounted 4" from the lamp.
Testing is still ongoing and what I like so much is on back roads, country back roads all black this thing lights the night up. It is so amazing to see the night turn into day.
Special consider needed to be made to not blind on comers. I have found a glass store front works good for testing. Point the light at the windows and get a reflection. The Glare test. Using foil tape to mask our certain areas of the lens that cause glare.
There seems to be a lot of country boys with 4x4 trucks going to HID on stock lenses. These thing are Blinding. They are quite a few now.
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Post by kurmyt on Apr 27, 2013 12:25:06 GMT -5
Frustration level is rising. I think I know the answer but I know very little about electrical...
So I have replaced the regulator with one from the local scoot shop. No difference in lights.
Ordered a new stator from Absolutely Scooters. Got it in this morning...and the lights are now dimmer than they were. Getting less than 2 VAC to them.
Out of frustration I accidentally started bike with lights in but the four wire harness not plugged into regulator. Lights burn bright...brighter with revving.
I'm assuming that riding without that harness plugged into regulator would lead to all kinds of problems? Like blowing bulbs...
Any ideas on where to look now? I'm to the point of taking it to someone because I just have no idea...but the man in me wants to conquer this.
70 degrees finally and I'm stuck in the garage with a floor full of parts...
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Post by kurmyt on Apr 27, 2013 16:35:07 GMT -5
Answered my own question. Blew dash lights. Back to square one.
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