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Post by dollartwentyfive on Feb 22, 2017 16:07:38 GMT -5
dollartwentyfi The head has four nuts and two bolts. I am pretty sure that I didn't put them in the same order they came off. The head is new so there shouldn't be an junk in the dowel pin holes. I don't recall seeing anything in the dowel holes in the block. Four of the six head attachments are nuts so nothing fell in them. I did carefully use a razor blade and gas to remove the old gasket from the block which is steel. about bolt patterns in general: i got this idea from someone else but i can't remember who. draw a rough outline of the bolt pattern on a piece of cardboard. remove each bolt and poke it through the cardboard at the right location, one by one. the above method will insure each bolt gets back into the original hole it came from.
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Post by bob123456789 on Feb 23, 2017 9:00:57 GMT -5
rockynv. Do these seem like good next steps?
1. Pull the new head off the block apart using the shop manual steps. 2. Inspect the block, the head, the head gasket and the dowels for any damage. Check the dowel pin fit in the new head. 3. I have a new head gasket that came with the head. Use it. 4. Spray the new gasket with copper coat. 5. I have one new dowel. I will use it. 6. Put everything back together following the shop manual.
I only have one new dowel pin. Should I get another before trying the steps above?
Should I use anything other than copper coat on the gasket?
dollartwentyfi. Thanks that is a good idea. I will do that if I take it apart again.
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Feb 23, 2017 12:06:53 GMT -5
Check the dowel pin fit in the new head. it isn't just the matter of fitting, the dowel pin cavities might not be deep enough to accommodate the pin. the only way i know of to check this is with a "t-square" type of micrometer. the dowel pin height should be less than the cavity depth in the head. if it is too high, then you might try tapping the dowel further into the block and measuring again. if that doesn't work, then file off the tops of the dowels just a little, and measure again. take this measurement without the gasket installed. if you suspect the acorn nuts are the source of your problems, then you might want to get some replacements. i'm sure some of the local parts dealers can give you some options. i just wished i could credit the person that turned me on to the idea.
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Post by cyborg55 on Feb 23, 2017 23:50:12 GMT -5
I've read on more than one forum of acorn nuts bottoming before good clamping pressure is achieved
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Post by rockynv on Feb 25, 2017 10:25:41 GMT -5
I've read on more than one forum of acorn nuts bottoming before good clamping pressure is achieved But they look pretty. Test fit the head with the dowel pins in place but without the head gasket and see if the gap that remains is too big to compress the head gasket otherwise you have to measure everything to account for the length of the dowel pins, depth of the dowel pin sockets in the head and cylinder along with the thickness of the head gasket. One quick test is if you can slide the head gasket into the gap near the dowel pins then they are too long or the sockets are not deep enough. Do not recall if that one has seals on the dowel pins for piping engine oil to the valve train like the Aprilia/Piaggio/Vespa design.
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Post by bob123456789 on Feb 25, 2017 14:45:07 GMT -5
First pics are attached. These are: New Head New gasket with copper coat Gasket that was in while the leaks occurred Cylinder block top The gasket which was in there when it leaked was steel on the inside with a thin layer of plastic on either side. The gasket that came with the new head is one layer of plastic. I don't recall ever seeing seals on the dowel pins. Even though I let the copper coat 24 hours it is still sticky. I will start checking some of things rockynv steered me to. Next steps?
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Post by bob123456789 on Feb 25, 2017 16:40:09 GMT -5
Here are some of the things rockynv asked for: Old gasket thickness 1.4 mm Old dowel outside diameter 14.0 mm Old dowel pin length 15.9 mm New dowel outside diameter 13.94 mm New dowel length 15.9 mm New head: Dowel hole diameter 13.75 mm Dowel hole depth 9.0 mm (measured by putting the new dowel in the hole and measuring the amount remaining out then subtracting from the length of the dowel pin) Old head: Dowel hole diameter 13. mm Dowel hole depth 9.0 mm (measured by putting the new dowel in the hole and measuring the amount remaining out then subtracting from the length of the dowel pin) Block Dowel depth 8.0 mm Dowel diameter not available since the stud is going thorough it My new gasket is too sticky with the Copper Coat to measure or try fitting to test the thickness. Should I use grease on the dowel pins when I reassemble it this time too help them seat deeply in the holes? Should I be replacing the head gasket that has the multiple layers with one that is just plastic? I am not seeing anything real obvious as to why it is leaking oil and antifreeze. Maybe a slight amount of rust in the dowel holes in the block? Any insight into how to solve this would be really appreciated. Next steps?
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Feb 26, 2017 9:45:00 GMT -5
pictures 1 and 3 do not match. upon closer inspection, it appears that neither of them goes to this engine. i cannot confirm that though because i have no experience with the 257.
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Post by rockynv on Feb 26, 2017 10:12:37 GMT -5
That new gasket does not look right. Where are the coolant ports? Is that a base gasket or from an Air Cooled engine?
Dowel pin holes are 17mm combined mated to 15.9mm pins so that along with the thickness of the head gasket should not be a problem.
Can you show a close up of the head gasket you used along with the same area on the cylinder and head where you saw the leak?
Also on the new head there appears to be a slot in the upper left corner of the picture that is not machined and seems to taper yet its profile appears on one of the gaskets. What is going though with that? Also there are a few ports on the new head that neither gaskets cover so are they blocked off or were screw in plugs provided with the head to block them off?
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Post by bob123456789 on Feb 26, 2017 11:33:57 GMT -5
See , that is why I am here. You are both right dolartwentyfiv and rockynv that is not the head gasket but the base gasket that I had copper coated. It had come in the same supplier as the head. I do have another head gasket in the gasket kit I bought. It has not been copper coated yet Here are some pictures of the new head gasket that was in but leaking. This gasket came with the new head when I bought it. Something I thought of last night is I didn't clean or oil the stud threads before putting the nuts on again. While this have impacted my torques?
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Post by bob123456789 on Feb 26, 2017 11:36:03 GMT -5
Here is a pic of the head gasket I have that is spare from a gasket kit I bought. It has not been copper coated yet.
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Post by cyborg55 on Feb 26, 2017 14:21:13 GMT -5
I think you have a problem with what's been said here a couple times ,,,I think the dowel pins are too long and not letting the barrel be torqued down to the right pressure and or the nuts on top ( if they're the acorn type ) are bottoming out and clamping force is not being achieved,,,,
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Post by bob123456789 on Feb 26, 2017 14:44:02 GMT -5
cyborg55. When I put it together last time I was able to torque it to the recommended torque and still had the small leaks.
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Post by bob123456789 on Feb 26, 2017 15:57:39 GMT -5
Rockynv. The extra holes you asked about on the head which aren't covered by the head gasket I am guessing are emission stuff related. That hole is right by the exhaust valve and eventually connects to a large black cylindrical thing that has the other side open to the open air. On the head there is a hole for the purpose and two holes to screw it down.
The thing on the new head not covered by the gasket which you asked about is a tab that has machined surface flat with the head. In the picture there is a shadow that looks like it is a hole. Nothing is going through it.
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Post by cyborg55 on Feb 26, 2017 16:59:26 GMT -5
cyborg55. When I put it together last time I was able to torque it to the recommended torque and still had the small leaks. Of course I believe you did,,and if the dowels were too long the load went on the dowel and not onto the sealing surface,,,it's actually a common problem in bike engines you need a depth gauge to measure the holes and measure the dowel length,,,even 5 thou too long will do it,,,
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