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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 28, 2015 19:51:34 GMT -5
"how would i know anything about what you were running last year, and furthermore why would i care?"
I respectfully suggest that when a response is directed to GEH it does not mean it is directed to, nor refer to, you. As for your caring, I have no response.
"mine wasn't a pump, it was a valve"
Again, when a response is directed toward another person it might not be directed to you. But, I took you are your word when you said (and i quote): "finally tossed the vacuum valve and at first got an electrically operated pump. i do not recommend a electrically operated pump."
Oh, and I used 1/4" hose. Black. And a filter before the ELECTRIC pump. Clear.
"an american made valve will suffer from the same shortages as a chinese valve, namely a lack of vacuum."
Well, that is true but I disagree if you have an ELECTRIC pump, which does not rely on vacuum at all.
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 28, 2015 19:22:01 GMT -5
vacuum shutoff valves for 50cc engines shouldn't pose much of a problem. mine never gave any problems. the issue arises with 250cc engines, and probably 150cc too. i simply had enough of the constant WOT then release. twist fully open, then having to close the throttle. finally tossed the vacuum valve and at first got an electrically operated pump. i do not recommend a electrically operated pump. i went to NAPA and got a manual valve for a briggs and stratton engine. you need to be aware of shutting off the fuel EVERY TIME you get off your ride. carb floats usually work pretty good at shutting off fuel flow, but sometimes they stick open. combine that with a particular position of the combustion cycle and you can wind up with an engine full of gas. i finally eliminated all of my vacuum lines except for the air cutoff valve. i would have eliminated that one too but i didn't like my scoot back firing on closed throttle. 6 inches from fuel tank outlet to carb inlet is sufficient for constant fuel flow for a 250, even at WOT. the reason i don't recommend an electrical pump is because of the pressure of the fuel. i found this out the hard way. i didn't get one of my band clamps tight enough and the fuel line to the carb blew off at speed. my chines scoot just up and died, and there i am thinking "what now?" so i park the ride, raised the seat, and started looking around, then finally noticed the stream of gas shooting out of the fuel line. that could have been a very bad situation. OTOH, some type of pump will be required for a tank below the carb inlet. just be careful with an electric pump. Many have issues with the cheap junk vacuum petcocks , that's why many switch to a Manuel shutoff instead , no vacuum , no worries. U must buy the right electric fuel pump or that will happen . there are many out there with different fuel pressure ratings. Hold on now, Hoss. As you well know, I've been running an electric pump since early last year and find it the single best improvement ever that can be made. Consider: when was the last time you saw a car manufactured with anything other than an electric pump?? Those ChinaPump vacuum things are like 18th century! Of COURSE you have to get one that is suited for a carbureted engine (duh!), not injected. And I strongly suggest getting a little pressure regulator set to about 2psi, since the ChinNeedleValve in our carburetor is butt-hurt at anything over about 4psi, and even pumps designed specifically for carb. engines are not all that great at keeping pressure down that low. But boy oh boy are the advantages great. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 28, 2015 12:33:53 GMT -5
Just take a look at the video and see how the idle gear fits in -- it will be obvious to you that the movement your are describing is normal. The gear slides on a shaft and is designed with a certain amount of free play. At any rate, movement of the idle gear is in no way related to the starter clutch, and is not an indicator that you should replace your clutch.
BTW - the starter motor source I suggested (in Puerto Rico) has terrific shipping. The price of shipping in included in the price of the product (which is still less than domestic suppliers). And, for me in San Diego, I normally get things from them in 2 days.
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 28, 2015 10:41:35 GMT -5
About the second part of your comment: The failed starter does NOT have anything to do with why your scooter initially died while you were riding. But, until you get it to where it turns over normally you can't measure compression or do anything at all to figure out what's going on. And maybe - just maybe - once the starter works properly the thing will start up. I kind of doubt it - thinking you might still have a fuel delivery problem or something - but till it's turning over nothing more can be done. If you didn't put a BBK in you probably do not "need" a high torque starter and can "probably" get away with a cheaper China standard one. Also - if you still have your original, OEM CDI I'd put it back in (presuming it works) until the engine is running. Advanced angle CDIs advance the point of ignition all the time - including at very low RPMs (like when you are trying to get the engine to start) and make starting much more difficult. They work better than stock once the engine is going, but make starting more difficult. So .... till the engine is running, best to use the OEM one. Let me ask you this, when I removed my starter, I put my hand in where the male end of the starter went, i can turn the gear that is in there very easily (only counter clockwise) and it wobbles from side to side (it isn't held firm) does this all sound correct?  Just a note to avoid confusion. When you reach into the opening for the starter motor and wiggle the gear - YOU ARE NOT EVEN TOUCHING THE STARTER CLUTCH. What you are feeling is the idle gear, which in turn mates with the teeth of the starter clutch. So, what you are wiggling is simply the idle gear, not the starter clutch. So, to be clear: the teeth on the end of your starter motor turn the idle gear; the idle gear in turn mates with and turns the starter clutch. Wiggling of the idle gear has nothing at all to do with the starter clutch. This video by Dan Martin shows the installation of the 2 main components on that side of the crankcase - the oil pump and starter clutch (with it's idle gear dropped in at the last minute). Ship to 5:30 on the video to see how the starter clutch goes in. This will show you also that the pilot gear is not at all the starter clutch, and wiggling the pilot gear is not at all wiggling the clutch. www.dansgaragetalk.com/topic/289-how-to-install-high-flow-oil-pump-and-performance-starter-clutch/ |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 27, 2015 23:50:06 GMT -5
That's pretty common - not any kind of a sign. I just removed the entire kick starter because it was useless and I got tired of messing with it to get it to do it's job.
BTW - I would think your clear fuel line would be 100% full of gas - not empty with 'some' trickling down. There is a valve inside the carb that actually allows the right amount of fuel in - there should be a constant supply to the carb, not a trickle. Maybe when you say 'trickle' you mean something other than what I'm thinking - but I would expect the line to be completely full all the time with not much evidence of movement (since it's full).
For an 'above engine" fuel tank you will probably not have an actual fuel pump (the fuel gets to the carb simply by gravity), but you WILL have a vacuum-operated petcock. This shuts off the fuel supply when the engine is off, so the fuel does not over time drain thru the carb. If there is no engine vacuum (for example, engine 'off' - or, starter not working properly) the petcock will remain closed and little or no gas will get to the carb. A 'trickle' might indicate a partial clog (or malfunction) so that not ENOUGH fuel gets to the carb, especially at open throttle like when you were last riding. Then you get no gas and the engine dies. This can also be caused by a vacuum LEAK (very, very common).
Once you get a functioning starter - presuming your scooter doesn't just fire up and run - these things can be sorted thru.
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 27, 2015 22:27:32 GMT -5
Yep - providing the spark plug is out. Teeth look good. you should be able to grasp the variator (or fan, if the shroud is off) and easily turn the engine (proper direction only). See - w/o the plug there is no compression; the weak starter easily turns the engine since there is little resistance to turning. But with the plug in the moment the piston travels up and compresses what's in the cylinder chamber, there is a huge resistance built up. That's what stops the starter motor from being able to continue to turn the engine. But with the plug out it turns simply and easily. The odds of a "soft seize" or a grabbing starter clutch are slim since neither shows up with the plug removed. Still, no guarantees ... but step 1 should be to get a known good starter.
ps: not to confuse you are this stage - get the starter motor and THEN move on - but thinking forward of what MIGHT then pop up. In thinking about why your scooter initially stopped, one possibility is it ran out of gas. Even if there is gas in the gas tank, if that gas doesn't get into the carb your engine runs out of gas and coasts to a halt, and then will not start again. There are several possible causes (including at THIS moment, with a failed starter motor and no engine turning, lack of vacuum - which is needed for gas to get to the carb). But the specific design of YOUR scooter comes into play. So ---- is your gas tank below the floor, or above the engine (asking to find out if gravity alone would be enough to get gas from the tank to the carb).
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 27, 2015 11:17:33 GMT -5
Guys! How about we try and guide Murky through this a step at a time, so he has at least a LITTLE chance of figuring out what is going on? Sure - this COULD be a bunch of things --- but if he is hopping about from one theory to the next he will never, ever, get anywhere. This stuff is interesting to us (esp the stuff P-Guy posts, which is REALLY interesting always) ... I feel we are doing more to confuse than to help at this point. First step - see if the starter or clutch is causing the inability to turn over. ps: dollar - a 150 does not have a bolt on the starter but a screw hole. And the motor, while in fact a torquey little thing, is not at all as torquey as that in a 244cc engine. You can easily hold it in your hand while running it. With the spark plug removed the starter keeps spinning it doesn't stop Now does this mean the starter motor isn't putting out enough power to start the engine? If so how does the starter suddenly not being strong enough make the scooter die while mid ride? About the second part of your comment: The failed starter does NOT have anything to do with why your scooter initially died while you were riding. But, until you get it to where it turns over normally you can't measure compression or do anything at all to figure out what's going on. And maybe - just maybe - once the starter works properly the thing will start up. I kind of doubt it - thinking you might still have a fuel delivery problem or something - but till it's turning over nothing more can be done. If you didn't put a BBK in you probably do not "need" a high torque starter and can "probably" get away with a cheaper China standard one. Also - if you still have your original, OEM CDI I'd put it back in (presuming it works) until the engine is running. Advanced angle CDIs advance the point of ignition all the time - including at very low RPMs (like when you are trying to get the engine to start) and make starting much more difficult. They work better than stock once the engine is going, but make starting more difficult. So .... till the engine is running, best to use the OEM one. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 26, 2015 20:25:08 GMT -5
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 26, 2015 18:20:09 GMT -5
Guys! How about we try and guide Murky through this a step at a time, so he has at least a LITTLE chance of figuring out what is going on? Sure - this COULD be a bunch of things --- but if he is hopping about from one theory to the next he will never, ever, get anywhere. This stuff is interesting to us (esp the stuff P-Guy posts, which is REALLY interesting always) ... I feel we are doing more to confuse than to help at this point.
First step - see if the starter or clutch is causing the inability to turn over.
ps: dollar - a 150 does not have a bolt on the starter but a screw hole. And the motor, while in fact a torquey little thing, is not at all as torquey as that in a 244cc engine. You can easily hold it in your hand while running it.
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 26, 2015 17:41:28 GMT -5
Did you remove the spark plug and try again  ? |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 26, 2015 15:59:14 GMT -5
First remove the spark plug and see if there is a change doing the same thing. Do this before going after anything more radical. No change means there is a problem beyond the starter motor. But if the engine with the plug removed (and thus zero compression) spins freely, I'd suspect your starter motor.
You never said if you put in a BBK. If so, a standard, OEM starter motor often lacks enough torque to spin the motor.
ps: in checking, you DID connect the jumper cables from the car battery as follows: black to engine ground, red touched directly to the screw connection on the starter motor itself (not just to the battery positive terminal) ..... right?
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 25, 2015 17:58:54 GMT -5
Tuned and on my way !!!!!!!! See ya in a few days. edit: Darn. Got about 5 miles and the engine exploded. I guess 10K was too high. you win. I knew it !! Actually I'd really like to know what the max is that they can take . I guess I'm just stuck on thinking that 9-10k is just too unforgivable with these engines , no matter what the brand name is. I'm sure that taida will last at least 2 times longer than the average China scoot engine but I just don't know is it can handle the higher rpms long enough to even consider those rpms . Yeah (sobbing). When I get a new GY6 for my exploded scooter I'll ride it to Penn. for your wedding and bring your Taida engine with me. But ........... not above 8K |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 25, 2015 17:41:58 GMT -5
Sorry - I will NOT be 'experimenting' with my Taida this way. Yeah - it might hold up just fine. Or it might not. I don't care to find out - it was just too expensive, and anyway, I like the thing too darned much to see how far I can push it before it "grenades" (nice word, George). Merry Christmas to all of you !!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh - and don't forget - the reason for Christmas isn't our scooters, nor the presents ... but the gift we received from God! Oh cmon rcq , we need data !! Why don't you tune your CVT so u can run it at 10k from your place to my place .I bet you will not make it out of Cali , lol. Merry Christmas !! If I win the bet , you have to buy me a taida engine ! Tuned and on my way !!!!!!!! See ya in a few days. edit: Darn. Got about 5 miles and the engine exploded. I guess 10K was too high. you win. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 25, 2015 17:18:49 GMT -5
who's talking running flat out ten thou plus all the time?,, all i've said all along is this mill is definantely a huge step up from the junk pile fodder chinese engine,,and it can be run safely to 10,000 ,,,the redline on this engine is higher and way safer than an unbalanced chinese mill with lesser grade materials and machining processes,,,and the price reflects this,,,(just speculating here) the engine probably costs more than a low grade scooter,,,anyways if it was run flat out all the time there would be an accident and you probably could wallpaper a bathroom with all the tickets,,,till they threw your in jail that is But what about the old Honda engines that redline at 8,000 pm ? They are not Chinese junk either , but were the first to build and test these Engines . they came up with the redline , not the Chinese junk. That's why the Chinese junk seems to self destruct at even less rpms, because they took the original Honda redline and used it with their clones. This is the thing, I replaced everything but the crank on my Chinese engine with mostly ncy parts . I'm sure I could have ran the rpms up to 10k for a quick hit here and there , but I would never of done it since I'm not into overheating my scoot . I was basing this discussion on the assumption that it would be safe and good for the engine if it was ran between 8500-10000 rpm for a length of time . even running at 9-10k for a mile or 2 straight would be " in my opinion " asking for problems. I think the main point I'm trying to make is : if Honda redlined the engine at 8k then taida can't be made that much better then Honda, and yes I agree that a short burst up to 10k may not cause the engine to grenade , but any length running it at at those rpms would be called " experimenting" since I've never really heard of anyone running one of these scoots at those rpms . I guess we can all speculate what would or would not happen , but when it comes down too it we will not know until someone tests this theory. And it must be tested for the whole life of the engine , running at those rpms to see if the engine only lasts so many miles. If someone builds me a full taida engine , I'll test it out ! Sorry - I will NOT be 'experimenting' with my Taida this way. Yeah - it might hold up just fine. Or it might not. I don't care to find out - it was just too expensive, and anyway, I like the thing too darned much to see how far I can push it before it "grenades" (nice word, George). Merry Christmas to all of you !!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh - and don't forget - the reason for Christmas isn't our scooters, nor the presents ... but the gift we received from God! |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 25, 2015 15:29:07 GMT -5
This COULD be a lot of things .... but until the starter is actually doing enough there is ZERO way of diagnosing anything.
Who knows - get the starter working and maybe the whole problem goes away. NO ONE here knows anything about what is going on until the engine is turning over properly. At this point we all are just speculating.
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