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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 31, 2016 21:28:32 GMT -5
Yeah, lain - that's pretty much the obvious guess: insufficient starting power, either because of the starter motor, the wiring, or the battery.
But the first thing Mark did was rule all that out by using a fully charged car battery (plenty of reserve power), getting a new "high torque" starter motor, and connecting the jumper cables from the battery directly to frame and to the starter + terminal. No change.
Then he took the right side cover off and found a distortion in the starter clutch, so he replace that. No change.
So the next logical conclusion is that the distortion in the starter clutch was a result of the problem, not the cause. So, not much left other than taking the top end apart.
What's odd is - early on he took the spark plug out and the engine spun like a top using the scooter's battery and wiring. That almost certainly points to insufficient starting torque .... but that's all been ruled out.
Odd problem, to be sure!
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 31, 2016 19:52:50 GMT -5
Yeah, Mark, you have gone thru all the normal stuff, so it's time to take the head and jug back off and look for something that is 'wrong' (like, for example, a bent valve). Remember you will need a new head gasket - these are a "use 1 time only" item (but cheap). I'd also get a new paper gasket for under the jug - a good portion of the time these tear when you pull the jug off.
Just remember - lots of photos and 1 step at a time. Maybe take the head off - only that - and take a ton of pix top and bottom, and of the top of the piston so we can try to see if there was any valve-to-piston contact.
You DID use a torque wrench on the 4 head nuts ... right?
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 30, 2016 11:33:01 GMT -5
So, it's really no different than what was going on before
1. I'd not try to start it more. Possible the starter clutch was damaged BECAUSE of whatever other issue is going on, and continued attempts to start would just damage the replacement starter clutch.
2. I guess, since you have gone through all the more likely possibilities and ruled them out, it's time to go back into the jug & head. To make sure - the bike started fine BEFORE you replaced the jug/head - right (I mean, before whatever problem began that caused you to replace the jug/head)? Might be that you put the piston in backwards, or for some other reason bent a valve.
3. If you start taking the head/jug apart DOCUMENT EVERYTHING IN PHOTOS so people can try to find a problem and help. Go a step at a time. Unless I'm mistaken - you long ago showed pix of the valve chain gear and flywheel position to rule out the possibility the valve timing is wrong. That's right?
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 29, 2016 0:39:26 GMT -5
Can't tell with the info you have given. There is no way anyone could figure out what you mean by "scooter continually tries to start, i hear the starter spinning, but it still doesn't start" "continually tries to start" - does that mean it's turning over over and over with a single push of the starter button? Last time it would not make it even thru a single cycle. What's going on? :"starter spinning" -  Still doesn't start - get this, but it's impossible to figure out why w/o more info. How about, for starters, a video? ps: when you take the compression #s is the throttle held wide open (so the engine sucks in as much air as it wants)? Anyway, till we know if the engine is at least turning over properly there isn't a way to move fwd. How about a video? |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 15, 2016 19:14:27 GMT -5
I cannot strongly enough advise against putting a nut on top of your shocks. Some very serious injuries have resulted from such shenanigans.
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Post by rcq92130 on Feb 25, 2016 10:38:23 GMT -5
The big question, of course, was about THIS piece:  Was it metal or a piece of gasket? Do you remember what it looked like? Light like a chunk of aluminum, or heavy like steel? |
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Post by rcq92130 on Feb 25, 2016 2:41:34 GMT -5
Hey Phat!
I don't know about "unheated" O2 sensors. I just used one I had taken off my car - didn't switch fast enough to drive a car's computer, but was still ideal for this.
Drilled into the muffler - had the bung welded on.
Multimeter will be fine for a static reading (idle), but Ive found the gauge both fun and also good for jetting (let's you see how the mixture varies under different loads). Proper voltage is 0.4v (stochiometric ideal), but will vary from 0.2v to 0.8v or so. Gauge is only $12. I mounted it using one of the handlebar clamp bolts. If you have a covered handlebar you would have to mess around to figure it out.
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Post by rcq92130 on Feb 24, 2016 23:08:34 GMT -5
1. Compression. No. But, if you cannot get the engine to turn over smoothly, 4 or 5 cycles, you can't get a compression reading that is meaningful.
2. Engine turning. Maybe; ask George who knows far more about this. I have been a doubter all along about the "starter clutch" theory, but after seeing your damage I guess I can envision it causing the whole thing to bind up.
3. Pieces. Dunno; it's worrisome. That's why George was trying to understand from you some more about the pieces so he could better advise - that really big one especially, presuming it actually was metal (I don't remember if you ever said yes or no on that).
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Post by rcq92130 on Feb 24, 2016 0:47:48 GMT -5
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Post by rcq92130 on Feb 23, 2016 18:37:47 GMT -5
Sounds like you are trying tyo use an AC CDI on a scooter wired for DC
Check with john (tvnacman) as he is the world expert on CDIs
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Post by rcq92130 on Feb 15, 2016 22:03:23 GMT -5
OK, George, I'm just going to go ahead and say it .....
If you look again at the video Mark posted (and listen to it) ....
It seems the engine is BINDING, not that the clutch is slipping. If it was slipping, the engine would reach to point of high compression and then the starter motor would continue to spin - engine not turning - and there would be a LOUD whining as the sprags scraped along the collar of the gear.
That's not what we see or hear.
instead, we see the engine turn, then it all comes to a halt - no noise from the starter motor or anything. It just seems to bind up.
Just seems to me it's binding, not slipping (or, in some way we do not understand, still an electrical problem so there just isn't enough torque).
There. I said it.
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Post by rcq92130 on Feb 14, 2016 21:42:46 GMT -5
iN YOUR PIC --- THEY ARE THE LITTLE HOCKEY PUCKS INSIDE THE CLUTCH. oops - sorry about the caps There are 3 in your clutch. When the starter motor spins the sprags are pressed INWARD toward the crankshaft. This pushes them against the part of the gear that sticks inside the clutch, and binds the clutch (and starter motor) to the gear, which turns the crankshaft ... When the starter motor is NOT spinning they retreat AWAY from the crankshaft so when the crankshaft spins it doesn't turn the gear (or starter motor)  George - what's that thing inside Mark's clutch?  |
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Post by rcq92130 on Feb 12, 2016 1:53:41 GMT -5
There are holes in the face of the clutch - thru them you can see cylindrical "pucks" that are called sprages.
I see one at about the 12:00 position, and another at about 7:00. These 2 are at least present and don't look messed up.
Can't tell what's over at 4:00 - kind of looks like something might be missing or funky, but from that photo can't quite see.
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Post by rcq92130 on Feb 11, 2016 23:45:24 GMT -5
Well I'll be Struck down, George! Looks like you just may have been right all along. Metal fragments in that engine compartment could only have come from a few places, since there is no "pass through" to any other compartment. I suppose it COULD be the oil pump ... but Las Vegas oddsmakers now have you  -to-1 as being correct. BRAVO! |
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Post by rcq92130 on Feb 11, 2016 1:28:03 GMT -5
Sounds like you, Sir, never ripped out the horse shoot, worthless ChinaHoses on your scooter. These things deteriorate from the inside, so while they look fine on the outside, on the inside they are falling apart, creating globs of dissolved "rubber" that mucks up everything.
Pull that crap out! put in some real fuel hose!
ps: this is no doubt why your needle valves have also been failing. Imagine that crap globbing up the needle valve, preventing it from seating!
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-to-1 as being correct.