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Post by william42 on Apr 15, 2014 18:51:10 GMT -5
Well, I'm not sure that I want to go that route yet.
I bought a cheapo vacuum gauge and "T'd" it between the "Y" connector and the fuel pump. At idle I'm getting about 7 IN-Hg (which I assume is negetive pressure or vacuum). At no-load half throttle or so it drops to about 1 IN-Hg. That's still a vacuum but not much. I would assume that the flow of fuel would lesson too as I increase the rpm's but the opposite is true.
I "T'd" in a clear tube between the fuel pump and the carburetor and got very little, or no, fuel coming down the hose at idle (when the vacuum is greatest). When I increase the rpm's I got a steady flow of fuel coming down the tube. (I assume that the float bowl is full and the fuel coming out the clear tube is the excess from the fuel pump output. It's coming out the clear tube instead of returning to the tank.)
I am bewildered by this result. Why is there not LESS fuel when there's less vacuum?
I want to note too that there is a lot of air coming down the clear tube with the fuel especially when at high rpm's. I might not have a real good seal at the "T" but it's not leaking fuel so I don't know.
These tests were run under no load conditions. That is, the bike was on it's stand the whole time and the rear wheel was free to spin.
What do y'all think of these results?
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Post by william42 on Apr 15, 2014 6:15:11 GMT -5
There is no external adjusting screw on the carb.
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Post by william42 on Apr 14, 2014 20:58:48 GMT -5
Actually I did adjust the idle screw right after I made that video. It helped some but not really. It was the next night that I adjusted the valves to .004 the first time. I also installed those LED's in the video below and since it started so nice and idled without killing I went for a ride, but it still stalled on me and took two hours before it would start again. I haven't been out since. I made the video to show off my LED's but it's useful here to show how it started and ran after the .004 valve adjust. I'm still nervous to take her out since I don't really know what the problem is yet.
I'll do a fuel pump output test in the morning and post my results to see what you think. Here's how it starts and runs now, but still has the problem of dying.
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Post by william42 on Apr 14, 2014 20:33:27 GMT -5
Does this help any? This was before I had any problems at all. Well, except for starting it in the morning which is what the video is all about.
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Post by william42 on Apr 14, 2014 20:16:29 GMT -5
I see your point and it makes perfect sense. If the pump were below the tank it would get it's gas supply free of charge via gravity. No vacuum at all would be needed to get the fuel to the pump. On the other hand, however, with the pump being lowered, gas would have to be pumped further up-hill to get it to the carburetor using more enegry getting it there. Does the math really work out in favor of your set-up? This is my first scooter really, so I have to use logic and my advanced old age of aquired knowledge to try to make sense of things. So another question I would have to ask myself is "why would the manufacturer install the pump in a place that might cause problems within the system?" I do value your opinion and insite though as you have a hellofalot more knowledge in this matter than do I. I hope you keep replying to my queries and put up with the lack of my understanding.
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Post by william42 on Apr 14, 2014 18:46:06 GMT -5
John, I reset the valves to .004 right after I wrote "Crap!". Skuttadawg, the fuel tank is beneath the floorboard. I got a few feet of gas line today and am going to somehow see if I can see the gas output from the fuel pump while I'm driving it. A can or something between my feet might work. The lengths I will go to I tell ya!
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Post by william42 on Apr 14, 2014 9:19:50 GMT -5
Or what is the possible problem associated with overfilling the fuel tank, which I did. Since the problem started happening at the start of my second fuel fill-up I have to consider the possibility of the over-filling creating a problem. Besides a vapor lock, is there anything else that could be a problem with the over-fill?
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Post by william42 on Apr 14, 2014 8:19:15 GMT -5
I'm going to get a couple of "Y" connectors and hook up some test hoses to check vacuum pressure and the output of the fuel pump while the engine is running. That should give an indication of problems in those areas. I have to start somewhere.
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Post by william42 on Apr 14, 2014 7:43:56 GMT -5
And then it hit me. As the throttle is opened wouldn't that airflow through the carburetor lesson the vacuum in the vacuum lines? Hmmm.
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Post by william42 on Apr 14, 2014 7:13:59 GMT -5
tvnacman- you said in an earlier reply that "cranking vac and running vac are different". What did you mean by that. How are they different?
If, as alleyoop claims, that running vac is indeed lower than cranking vac, then I would have to agree that the floatbowl isn't being replenished fast enough to supply the need of the increased rpm's at full throttle because the amount of fuel coming from the fuel pump at idle was low to begin with, as shown in the video.
How I took the quote was that just because the fuel pump output was low at idle doesn't mean that it's low at running rpm's and that I shouldn't be concerned with the cranking rpm's as shown in the video. But now, your above reply seems to contradict your first reply. Unless I misunderstood.
The pulsing feature of the fuel pump is created by a spring and vacuum (supplied by the downward movement of the piston). A vacuum is created inside the fuel pump sucking fuel from the tank into the pump. When the vacuum is removed from the pump (the piston no longer in it's downward movement) then the spring returns the diaphram inside the pump to it's normal state forcing the fuel through the fuel line to the carburetor. The faster the piston moves the more pulses it's going to give to the fuel pump therefore increasing the amount of fuel to the carburetor.
The volume of air that the piston displaces remains constant. However the volume of air being moved inside the system (vacuum lines) should change with the changing speed of the piston. The air pressure (vacuum) created by the piston should not change as the rpm's increase or decrease, however the volume of air will increase or decrease with the changing rpm's because more air is being moved inside the system. This, then, should produce more vacuum pulses at the fuel pump supplying more fuel to the carburetor.
I would like to think that the fuel pump would by designed to supply more fuel than the carburetor can use and I think that is supported by the third line on the pump returning to the fuel tank. As the carburetor float closes it would create a back pressure in the fuel pump and that pressure would somehow return the excess fuel to the fuel tank.
With all that said, because the fuel pump at the beginning of the video wasn't pumping any fuel at all, and very little at other points in the video, does logic suggest that the fuel pump return system is faulty? That it is stuck open and supplying most of the pumped fuel back to the tank instead of the carburetor? Then again, maybe the rag I had stuffed into the intake manafold was letting enough vacuum escape through the rag to lessen it in the hoses so as to not have enough vacuum at the pump?
The routing of the vacuum lines is different now then it was when I had the problem. I changed them because I was having the problem. The way they are routed in the video is the original set-up and I believe are the way alleyopp want's them routed.
Comments???
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Post by william42 on Apr 13, 2014 21:30:06 GMT -5
Crap! I set the valves in inches and it should have been mm. And the bike is new. It only has 170 miles on it so I wouldn't think any grounds would need cleaning, but I'll check everything for tightness.
I appreciate the help fella's.
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Post by william42 on Apr 13, 2014 19:22:46 GMT -5
Here's the flowchart: Always started hard from day 1, that is, it would start but I had to play with the throttle to keep it running until it warmed up and even then it would die at the first stop sign. I increased the idle speed. 1st tank of gas; had no problems. (other than the warm up period listed above) 2nd tank of gas, problem started almost right away. 1st problem ; was driving at 45 mph, (for about 3 miles) engine lost all power, slowed to 30 then caught again and went back up to 45 and finished the trip home. 2nd problem; Same as first problem. 3rd problem; Same as original problem except the engine never caught and I came to a complete stop. But it started right back up and I finished the trip home. 4th problem. Same as 3rd problem except it took longer to start this time (about 5 minutes)
Then I posted my problem and ended up adjusting the valves to .004. It started up and idled better than it ever has so I took it out for a spin. About 3 miles down the road it lost power again and I couldn't get it started again for two hours.
I rerouted the vacuum lines, adjusted the valves to .007, emptied then replaced gas that was left in tank (maybe I just got bad gas?)
I just went out and hit the starter on a 6 hour cold engine and it popped off instantly and idled ok. I could tell the Enricher was working by the way the idle was going up and down slightly. It never did that when I first got it. I can hear the valves ticking now but I remember what an old timer once said to me. "Better to hear the valves than have them too tight". And they're set to factory recommended specs.
I guess now all I can do is try it out and see what happens...
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Post by william42 on Apr 13, 2014 13:22:38 GMT -5
Ok, so after I aired out the cylinder I got it started again. It took awhile but I stayed off the throttle and she finally caught and stayed running. I let it warm up good then drove it up and down the block without any trouble. So I'm thinking that it was just flooded. But that doesn't explain my initial problem of it just stalling on me when I'm doing 45mph. I just don't get it!
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Post by william42 on Apr 13, 2014 12:08:28 GMT -5
What kind of problems will a tiny seal breach in the intake valve cause? I mean, the compression is great enough that it forces my finger off the spark plug hole. There may be some back pressure through that valve and back into the carburetor but it's minimal. Is that tiny bit of pressusre leak back to the carb going to be causing the kind of problems that I'm having? I'd like to take care of the this problem first. Is this the root cause of my problem?
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Post by william42 on Apr 13, 2014 10:32:14 GMT -5
If I have bubbles coming out from around the intake valve during compression does that mean the cylinder is flooded with gas? I still have good spark and compression so I removed the spark plug to air out the cylinder and see if that helps. Maybe it's flooded so that's why it won't start???
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