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Post by JerryScript on Dec 15, 2015 3:18:07 GMT -5
High speed and torque eh, want a cherry on top of that too? j/k
You've got the torque in that baby, gear up and adjust weights after.
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 15, 2015 8:10:40 GMT -5
Ride it like you stole it, bores and pistons are reasonably cheap on GY6 engines, you can treat them as consumables. My concern is throwing a rod, because of the damage it could cause. And I have no idea what and how the rod is made on these crank sets. And I have no idea what kind of valve springs Taida uses. The Taiwan 60mm head I had before supposedly had 12k stainless springs ... but who knows. This engine is only running at 190cc - which is 18% under the max they can handle. So, there is plenty of meat in the case and probably not very much movement. And the oil cooler keeps everything nice and cool. Even running at 75mph for a while the oil does not get up much past 150. I guess the main issue here is what the intended use is. 60 or 65mph top speed, for me, was just inadequate. It's not that I want to exceed this often - the scooter suspension isn't safe at higher speeds - but when the occasion arises i want to have the reserve. And i don't want to be slowing down to 50 or 45 going up hills. And, mainly, I want to be able to cruise along at normal speeds (60 or so) without the engine wailing like it's a jet taking off. So, even if 8K is safe for extended periods of time (I'm not yet convinced) I don't want that racket, vibration and irritation. Being ABLE to juice it is vital - but cruising at 6500 or 7000 is what I'm after. Did you ever locate a swing arm for your scoot ? |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 15, 2015 15:26:48 GMT -5
My concern is throwing a rod, because of the damage it could cause. And I have no idea what and how the rod is made on these crank sets. And I have no idea what kind of valve springs Taida uses. The Taiwan 60mm head I had before supposedly had 12k stainless springs ... but who knows. This engine is only running at 190cc - which is 18% under the max they can handle. So, there is plenty of meat in the case and probably not very much movement. And the oil cooler keeps everything nice and cool. Even running at 75mph for a while the oil does not get up much past 150. I guess the main issue here is what the intended use is. 60 or 65mph top speed, for me, was just inadequate. It's not that I want to exceed this often - the scooter suspension isn't safe at higher speeds - but when the occasion arises i want to have the reserve. And i don't want to be slowing down to 50 or 45 going up hills. And, mainly, I want to be able to cruise along at normal speeds (60 or so) without the engine wailing like it's a jet taking off. So, even if 8K is safe for extended periods of time (I'm not yet convinced) I don't want that racket, vibration and irritation. Being ABLE to juice it is vital - but cruising at 6500 or 7000 is what I'm after. Did you ever locate a swing arm for your scoot ? THAT WENT ON THE BACK BURNER WHILE I WORK ON TUNING |
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Post by pistonguy on Dec 15, 2015 16:16:29 GMT -5
There are really only three things to take into consideration when discussing redlining, piston+crank mass vs alloy strength, bearing limits, and valve float. On a gy6, the main issue is valve float up to redline, then crank mass, then bearing limits. If you want a super gy6 to redline regularly, you will need to have stronger valve springs. Engine age and normal usage also are important factors. An engine that is babied all the time will suffer most when redlined due to a lip that forms at the end of the piston ring travel. An engine that is redlined, or close to it, often will not have such a pronounced lip edge. This lip edge can break rings when pushed on a babied engine. Partially correct on the Valve Springs. The Main Problem I see with the three sets I have and my oe is the Valve Spring Windings on Both the Inner and Outer are going in the Same Direction. This goes Against Everything Ive ever learned on Valve Train Harmonics. The Left is a Pair off a 61mm Big Valve head, Center is Taida, Right is the Ti Spray Coated NCY all Windings Going in the Same Direction.  Here is just the Taida, I have Not Measured Seat Pressure Yet but this Apperas will Be More than Adequate., Simply adding a ton of Spring Pressure Brings about another whole set of issues. I will Most Likely Not Use any of these and as there is Allot of 5mm Valve Stem Valve train around Match up to a Set of PSI springs that have the Windings Going Correctly in opposite Directions.  . These Conventional Linier Wound Springs has a Normal Natural Harmonic Frequency, that in Operation will find several coils grouped together up next to coils extremely stretched out. This Pattern Will Travel up and Down Similiar to that of a Slinky called Spring Surge Action and is Our Enemy. in a Attempt to try to Control the Harmonics, There MUST be Dual Springs with Opposite Windings with the Idea Being to Cancel "tune Out" each Others Negative Frequencies. |
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Post by pistonguy on Dec 15, 2015 16:29:01 GMT -5
Having a looks at some of the Off the Shelf Aftermarket I don't see too much problem at all Raising the RPM Limit a few Thousand RPM. Given Correct Valve Springs and a Cam that Made Power to that Newer Limit. There Plenty of Material on the Taida Pistons to run over 10K. Here is Both a Cast and Forged 61mm, Neither Piston will Break at 10,500. Disregard the NCY on the Right.  Heres a Stroker Crank. I Did check this on the Truing stand and is under .001 run-out. The Rod IsMore than Adequate Material on Both the Big and Small Ends. Could Weld the Crank upon if it made ya Feel Better. I may do a few things in that area. lighten or forth   Taida Forging on Stroker Crank. Plenty of Material on the Bottom side of the Pin Bore  Taking a Hard look at these Hard Parts. Now at the RPM stuff being said I like My GY-6 Sweet Spot to be 6,400-7,200 |
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Post by cyborg on Dec 17, 2015 9:56:39 GMT -5
Having a looks at some of the Off the Shelf Aftermarket I don't see too much problem at all Raising the RPM Limit a few Thousand RPM. Given Correct Valve Springs and a Cam that Made Power to that Newer Limit. There Plenty of Material on the Taida Pistons to run over 10K. Here is Both a Cast and Forged 61mm, Neither Piston will Break at 10,500. Disregard the NCY on the Right. Heres a Stroker Crank. I Did check this on the Truing stand and is under .001 run-out. The Rod IsMore than Adequate Material on Both the Big and Small Ends. Could Weld the Crank upon if it made ya Feel Better. I may do a few things in that area. lighten or forth Taida Forging on Stroker Crank. Plenty of Material on the Bottom side of the Pin Bore Taking a Hard look at these Hard Parts. Now at the RPM stuff being said I like My GY-6 Sweet Spot to be 6,400-7,200 |
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Post by cyborg on Dec 17, 2015 9:57:11 GMT -5
I rest my case
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 18, 2015 0:36:38 GMT -5
I'd like to see someone tune a nice full taida built engine to reach 10k , and see how long the engine holds out after normal use. This is the whole problem . when u have an engine like this that taps out at 7500 rpms with 12-14 gram roller weights , your not going to get too much more if you tune the CVT so that the engine can reach 10k. For instance. To reach 10k you would need to drop the roller weights down to between 7-8 grams . this in turn will kill belt climb and I would not expect that 2500 rpm more would be able to cause enough force for the 7-8 gram weights to push the belt up the variator as far as what the 12-14 gram weights at 7500 rpms was able to. So what you would have is a scoot screaming down the road at 10k rpms but only running near the same mph it was running at 7500 rpm. That and now your running at higher engine temps. I've actually had an out comes like this while tuning my CVT before. I forget the exact weihts , but I will explain . when running let's say 9 gram rollers I was able to reach a top speed of 67 mph at 7500 rpms. When I tried 8 gram weights , my rpms shot up to over 8,000+ rpm but my mph went down to 62 mph . the higher rpms could not spin the gram lighter weights fast enough to push the belt up the variator as high as the 9 gram setup at 7500 rpms was able to . I guess its not just can the parts take the 10k rpm range , but will it be worth it ? |
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Post by JerryScript on Dec 18, 2015 17:29:07 GMT -5
And that's why you up the final drive gears!
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 18, 2015 19:58:48 GMT -5
And that's why you up the final drive gears! Yeah, that's why the first thing done was to gear up to 16/36 - not the lowest ratio commercially available, but pretty close to it. All of this variator tuning is AFTER putting in taller gears. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 18, 2015 20:04:55 GMT -5
Having a looks at some of the Off the Shelf Aftermarket I don't see too much problem at all Raising the RPM Limit a few Thousand RPM. Given Correct Valve Springs and a Cam that Made Power to that Newer Limit. There Plenty of Material on the Taida Pistons to run over 10K. Here is Both a Cast and Forged 61mm, Neither Piston will Break at 10,500. Disregard the NCY on the Right. Heres a Stroker Crank. I Did check this on the Truing stand and is under .001 run-out. The Rod IsMore than Adequate Material on Both the Big and Small Ends. Could Weld the Crank upon if it made ya Feel Better. I may do a few things in that area. lighten or forth Taida Forging on Stroker Crank. Plenty of Material on the Bottom side of the Pin Bore Taking a Hard look at these Hard Parts. Now at the RPM stuff being said I like My GY-6 Sweet Spot to be 6,400-7,200 P-Guy always comes up with the most interesting and informative comments around! Here is the difference, PG: you build for race, and tear your engines down after every run. I'm looking for a balance that will let me avoid a tear down until Obama finally leaves office - whatever century that is. My family driver car is a big body BMW. Probably will do 140 or so if I wanted; never tried on that car. But at highway speeds (75 to 80) it cruises along at 2,000 to 2,500 RPM. SWEET! I'd love to get SuperEngine configured so I could still reach a reasonable top speed on those rare occasions I wanted or needed to, but under normal conditions cruises along at 55 or 60 at about 6,500 RPM. I might WOT the thing at takeoff - just because I hate being passed - but normally just want to cruise along with the flow on this rickety Retro thing. |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 18, 2015 21:34:18 GMT -5
And that's why you up the final drive gears! But what happens when u up the gears even more then already done ? U need even lighter weights to get up to 10k. Or go with gears closer to stock , but then you would have to do the comparison all over again , and it would be pretty much the same outcome. Using taller gears puts more stress on the engine therefore you need lighter weights to hit a certain rpm. Even with stock gears you may reach 10k with 10 ram weights , but now the gearing is too low and you still probably only running at the same mph !! |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 18, 2015 21:48:44 GMT -5
And that's why you up the final drive gears! Yeah, that's why the first thing done was to gear up to 16/36 - not the lowest ratio commercially available, but pretty close to it. All of this variator tuning is AFTER putting in taller gears. These scoots are made with parts that are meant to be ran at a certain rpm range. Meaning the CVT will perform the best running at such and such rpm with such and such weights . so let's all of a sudden jump up to 10k !! Well first we need to drop the variator weights significantly to even reach 10k , now at 10k the variator is not spinning the weights fast enough to push the belt up as high as it was running before . No matter what we do we already know the power the engine is putting out. I'm guessing with stock gears , the engine will have enough power to spin 15 gram rollers at 7500-8000 rpms and get full belt climb . but in order to reach 10k you will now need to drop to around 10 gram weights . now will this setup " stock gears and full belt climb " give u a better top speed ? Not sure since full belt climb is not being achieved at this time. But when it comes to hitting 10k with this setup , the top speed may still end up being the same as with the 15 gram weights at 8k . it seems the ratio of rm to weight needed goes up and up as the roller weight drops. This is more then likely due to the way the CVT parts are made. I'm sure they are made considering the redline on these scoots are 8k. It just seems like when we try to push these scoots as fast as we can , we always run into the 8k roadblock . when we use lighter weights for more rpms we tend to loose mph . no matter what a variator is built so it takes a certain roller weight at a certain rpm to push the belt up the variator face fully" at some point u need more power to gain more mph" Yes you can use a lighter weight and a higher rpm , but like I said , after dropping even one gram and gaining a good 500 rpm , my belt travel dropped and I was unable to reach full belt climb. Just maybe one can tune the CVT to reach 10k and possibly gain a few mph , but for what ? higher engine temps ? And wondering how long she'll hold up ? |
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Post by pistonguy on Dec 20, 2015 8:16:48 GMT -5
Having a looks at some of the Off the Shelf Aftermarket I don't see too much problem at all Raising the RPM Limit a few Thousand RPM. Given Correct Valve Springs and a Cam that Made Power to that Newer Limit. There Plenty of Material on the Taida Pistons to run over 10K. Here is Both a Cast and Forged 61mm, Neither Piston will Break at 10,500. Disregard the NCY on the Right. Heres a Stroker Crank. I Did check this on the Truing stand and is under .001 run-out. The Rod IsMore than Adequate Material on Both the Big and Small Ends. Could Weld the Crank upon if it made ya Feel Better. I may do a few things in that area. lighten or forth Taida Forging on Stroker Crank. Plenty of Material on the Bottom side of the Pin Bore Taking a Hard look at these Hard Parts. Now at the RPM stuff being said I like My GY-6 Sweet Spot to be 6,400-7,200 P-Guy always comes up with the most interesting and informative comments around! Here is the difference, PG: you build for race, and tear your engines down after every run. I'm looking for a balance that will let me avoid a tear down until Obama finally leaves office - whatever century that is. My family driver car is a big body BMW. Probably will do 140 or so if I wanted; never tried on that car. But at highway speeds (75 to 80) it cruises along at 2,000 to 2,500 RPM. SWEET! I'd love to get SuperEngine configured so I could still reach a reasonable top speed on those rare occasions I wanted or needed to, but under normal conditions cruises along at 55 or 60 at about 6,500 RPM. I might WOT the thing at takeoff - just because I hate being passed - but normally just want to cruise along with the flow on this rickety Retro thing. We'll yes and no on my builds I come across wrong on My GY-6. I want to ride, Not work on a 10hr Grenade. well, every 10 hrs. I mentioned my sweet spot is 6,400-7,200 rpm If we pick a off the shelf cam they make the Bulk of there Snots from 6,500-8,500 rpm, Maybe. I'm in the Meat of hp and torque for Maybe 2,000rpm. So were Do I want that 2,000rpm Power Band to be for My Riding? 8-10K rpm, 6-8K rpm? Paying closer attention to some detail will Mostly provide Longevity and Durability. Spin the Rotating Assy. True and Weld Crank. Lighten if ya want, for single crankshaft it isn't that much $$ to do this. can go further in Straightening out the Rod Angle for the Strokers. Sort out some Proper Valve Springs. So now I make the meat of power from 6,500-8,500, ok with the Mods mentioned above I have assurance that I could run 8,500-9 grand all afternoon, park it and do it again tomorrow. Im not interested in doing that, probably never will, but could if I wanted to without a concern. |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 21, 2015 13:09:41 GMT -5
I think my main concerns with running the engine at that rpm 8500-10000 rpm at any length of time , considering you would be running all out constantly , would be : I have yet to hear of anyone doing it and posting any results like oil temps or how long the engine lasted compared to someone running no higher then 8000 rpms. And also I can get the same speeds at 8k then one could at 10k so why do it ? I would just have some pretty justified concerns. I would never do it unless I had a donor engine to run it at those rpms for extended periods , or if I had the extra cash to test it out .
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