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Post by dmartin95 on Jan 31, 2015 19:01:35 GMT -5
Thanks for clarifying that for me. The shop had both labeled Ac stator and DC stator looking the same and they both looked like the AC stator you posted. So I guess they really didn't have any DC stators. How come the DC stator has 12 poles? Do they pit out even more power than the 11-pole AC? You're welcome. Stators come with many different configurations. I have a couple that are 18 pole. They are also DC, as to why they chose that specific number of coils? I don't know. Also, I'm not sure if a 12 pole makes more or less than the 11 pole... It's not just the pole count, it's also the amount of copper each coil has (your "winding's" I think they're called).... And while it's true GY6 Stators only produce AC output current, there is a very real difference between an AC and a DC stator..... As illustrated in the pictures above... An example I can give you: One of my scooters is what's considered an AC fired system. It has an AC CDI, which receives power it's power directly from the stator in parallel with the pickup... If you tried installing that 12 pole stator you would have to also convert over to a DC CDI which adds to the expense. In addition to that, re-wiring would be required. Anyhow, that is the difference between AC and DC: rather or not it has a dedicated coil for the CDI. |
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Post by tvnacman on Jan 31, 2015 22:11:00 GMT -5
if you have an ac ignition system and want to keep it that way you will need a stator that has windings/coils dedicated to ignition power . If you have a stator that has dedicated windings for ignition , you do not need to use the dedicated winding/coils and can still power the ignition system from the battery DC .
I'm not able to find the thread with the 12 pole to 11 pole and dc to ac ignition conversion it was nice with nice pictures and numbers .
John
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Post by JerryScript on Jan 31, 2015 22:28:59 GMT -5
if you have an ac ignition system and want to keep it that way you will need a stator that has windings/coils dedicated to ignition power . If you have a stator that has dedicated windings for ignition , you do not need to use the dedicated winding/coils and can still power the ignition system from the battery DC . I'm not able to find the thread with the 12 pole to 11 pole and dc to ac ignition conversion it was nice with nice pictures and numbers . John Not sure if this is what you were looking for. I found this thread with good pics detailed by alleyoop: itistheride.boards.net/thread/5351?page=2And linked in that thread is this PDF from JR's site: www.jr-richscooterdoc.com/Help_11_coil_stator_install.pdf |
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Post by dmartin95 on Feb 1, 2015 1:11:15 GMT -5
If you have a stator that has dedicated windings for ignition , you do not need to use the dedicated winding/coils and can still power the ignition system from the battery DC . I'm not able to find the thread with the 12 pole to 11 pole and dc to ac ignition conversion it was nice with nice pictures and numbers . John You can use a 5 wire R/R on a full wave stator... It will produce electrical current.... But it will not be working optimally and you will be losing half your power. You can install a 30mm carb in place of a 24mm on a stock 150cc, and it will work, but again, not working "right".... I could go on and on... Yes, there are many ways to jury rig these scooters up... But jury rigging or mixing and matching parts and hoping they work is not fixing it right... =================== Okay, yes, you could install an 11 (AC fired) pole stator in place of a DC 12 pole (non dedicated pole) simply by not hooking up your (  I think it's called your trigger wire (the extra wire coming from the dedicated pole))...... But, we go back to it not working RIGHT.... First problem would be you're not getting your stators full amount of power because in short, you've made it a 10 pole by not including the dedicated pole.... Second problem directly relates to the first.... Because you're now working with a 10 pole and less power, your stator may not be able to produce enough power to energize all your electrical components and have enough electrical current to power the DC CDI, this can lead to timing issues..... Third problem relates to first and second..... Because you've eliminated your trigger coil (11th pole), you're R/R will be missing the some power/current (dip in current) at the timing point of fire.... So, in short, you may be able to get it to work, but it could lead to timing issues and lack of current.... Better have a huge battery and even then it's likely to be drained over and over....========================== Anyone is free to do as they please, But I advise installing an AC CDI with an AC stator and DC CDI with a DC stator... Anything else is just extra work and could lead to problems. |
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Post by tvnacman on Feb 1, 2015 7:22:44 GMT -5
if you have an ac ignition system and want to keep it that way you will need a stator that has windings/coils dedicated to ignition power . If you have a stator that has dedicated windings for ignition , you do not need to use the dedicated winding/coils and can still power the ignition system from the battery DC . I'm not able to find the thread with the 12 pole to 11 pole and dc to ac ignition conversion it was nice with nice pictures and numbers . John Not sure if this is what you were looking for. I found this thread with good pics detailed by alleyoop: itistheride.boards.net/thread/5351?page=2And linked in that thread is this PDF from JR's site: www.jr-richscooterdoc.com/Help_11_coil_stator_install.pdfJerry it is not what you posted a link to , but is from Doc . Rich changed the 12 pole to 11 pole with some other cvt mods . I had worked with Rich through the install process . He takes great pictures and has a knack for illustration . John |
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Post by JerryScript on Feb 1, 2015 14:25:48 GMT -5
Jerry it is not what you posted a link to , but is from Doc . Rich changed the 12 pole to 11 pole with some other cvt mods . I had worked with Rich through the install process . He takes great pictures and has a knack for illustration . John OK, my google-fu is weak today, but I think I may have found the diagram, no luck finding that thread though: www.jr-richscooterdoc.com/Help_electrical_explained.pdfI used these search terms: "11 pole to 12 pole stator upgrade Jr site:jr-richscooterdoc.com" I got no results when I included "CVT" in the search. |
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Post by bashan on Feb 2, 2015 22:38:20 GMT -5
Here's the thread. I'm sorry DM but there is no full wave stator. A stator produces AC current, either through two wires that are at each end of all of the coils, or a white and yellow wire where the white is the long wire through the coils, and the yellow which is center tapped on the white. Read this thread. The full or half wave part comes into play with the rectifier. It either rectifies just half of the waveform or the full waveform with a bridge rectifier. Just because a stator doesn't have a magneto coil to generate AC power for an AC CDI does not mean it's a DC stator or a full wave stator. It means it's a stator that generates AC power that does not have a magneto coil. Just because a stator has a magneto coil to generate energy for an AC CDI does not mean it's an AC stator or a half wave stator. A stator is a stator, it generates AC current, so does the magneto coil if it's present. There's no half wave or full wave stator, no DC stator. They are AC making devices, what you do with the current after that is your choice. You can have a stator with a magneto coil and not use the magneto coil, it's still an AC stator. You just choose to run a DC CDI off of the battery and let the magneto coil screw off like my step son. You can use the magneto coil to power an AC CDI and force it to work which is like pulling teeth with Pete (my stepson  ). The trigger coil is a completely separate entity from the stator, it has nothing to do with the stator. It only makes low level AC current for the CDI to initiate the spark. |
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Post by JerryScript on Feb 3, 2015 2:20:18 GMT -5
Here's the thread. I'm sorry DM but there is no full wave stator. A stator produces AC current, either through two wires that are at each end of all of the coils, or a white and yellow wire where the white is the long wire through the coils, and the yellow which is center tapped on the white. Read this thread. The full or half wave part comes into play with the rectifier. It either rectifies just half of the waveform or the full waveform with a bridge rectifier. Just because a stator doesn't have a magneto coil to generate AC power for an AC CDI does not mean it's a DC stator or a full wave stator. It means it's a stator that generates AC power that does not have a magneto coil. Just because a stator has a magneto coil to generate energy for an AC CDI does not mean it's an AC stator or a half wave stator. A stator is a stator, it generates AC current, so does the magneto coil if it's present. There's no half wave or full wave stator, no DC stator. They are AC making devices, what you do with the current after that is your choice. You can have a stator with a magneto coil and not use the magneto coil, it's still an AC stator. You just choose to run a DC CDI off of the battery and let the magneto coil screw off like my step son. You can use the magneto coil to power an AC CDI and force it to work which is like pulling teeth with Pete (my stepson ). The trigger coil is a completely separate entity from the stator, it has nothing to do with the stator. It only makes low level AC current for the CDI to initiate the spark. Thanks, your google foo strong! And thanks for the detailed explanation as well! |
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Post by tvnacman on Feb 3, 2015 8:33:18 GMT -5
Seems as if the only one to disagree on ac/DC stator is DM makes me wonder what the vendors that sell them say . Often times mistakes are made in part listing . Then you get people that cut and paste and repete misinformation. Some make a living cuting and pasting . Then create great expense .
John
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Post by bashan on Feb 3, 2015 21:38:21 GMT -5
I'm not 100% how the rectifier works, but I know it charges the battery in the scooter. 1)Is there a difference between A/C and D/C rectifier? I know my bike has an AC stator. 2) Now when the bike is idling, the voltage fluctuates, around 14V, but sometimes it dips below 12 for a split second, and sometimes it spikes to 15.8V for a split second. Is this normal for the rectifier to do that? 4) If my rectifier is indeed working correctly, what I can do to get a stable 12V power line where there is no fluctuations in voltage? Something like a 12V voltage regulator? A rectifier turns AC voltage into DC voltage through the use of one way electrical gates called diodes. So a rectifier is not AC or DC. The back and forth of alternating current is forced in one direction to charge the battery and supply DC power. Your R/R already has a regulator in it, the R/R means regulator/rectifier. The sensing unit in this R/R is the regulator:
The little triangles are the diodes and they only allow current to flow in one direction, negative to positive. If your voltage is varying that much then the regulator part of your R/R is bad and that is why your lights are flickering. The above is a three phase stator with the characteristic three legs of AC feed. Below is a center tap stator powering a single phase R/R. You can see how the yellow wire is tapped into the center of the white wire (1):
The coil on the right is the magneto that supplies an AC CDI. Want to make it a DC system?, use a DC CDI and don't hook up the magneto coil. Want to make it an AC system?, use an AC CDI and hook up the magneto. So you see how there really is no AC or DC stator.
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Post by alleyoop on Feb 3, 2015 22:47:13 GMT -5
Listen up people you have one of a couple of ELECTRICAL SCOOTER GURUS telling and showing you the real poop so take it all in.
Alleyoop
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Post by JoeyBee on Feb 3, 2015 23:11:17 GMT -5
alleyoop. Sh#t, I'm taking notes with all this good info. I think whenever userix has his problem solved and the discussion is finished, this thread should be saved in the tech library. Almost all you need to know about AC/DC stators and magnetos is right here.
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Post by alleyoop on Feb 3, 2015 23:23:13 GMT -5
You got it Joey well do, but not to worry Bashan is the Owner of ScooterDoc and it is there already if need be.
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Post by dmartin95 on Feb 4, 2015 9:59:30 GMT -5
Here's the thread. I'm sorry DM but there is no full wave stator. A stator produces AC current, either through two wires that are at each end of all of the coils, or a white and yellow wire where the white is the long wire through the coils, and the yellow which is center tapped on the white. Read this thread. The full or half wave part comes into play with the rectifier. It either rectifies just half of the waveform or the full waveform with a bridge rectifier. Just because a stator doesn't have a magneto coil to generate AC power for an AC CDI does not mean it's a DC stator or a full wave stator. It means it's a stator that generates AC power that does not have a magneto coil. Just because a stator has a magneto coil to generate energy for an AC CDI does not mean it's an AC stator or a half wave stator. A stator is a stator, it generates AC current, so does the magneto coil if it's present. There's no half wave or full wave stator, no DC stator. They are AC making devices, what you do with the current after that is your choice. You can have a stator with a magneto coil and not use the magneto coil, it's still an AC stator. You just choose to run a DC CDI off of the battery and let the magneto coil screw off like my step son. You can use the magneto coil to power an AC CDI and force it to work which is like pulling teeth with Pete (my stepson ). The trigger coil is a completely separate entity from the stator, it has nothing to do with the stator. It only makes low level AC current for the CDI to initiate the spark. Did you read my replies or just randomly post that? I know stators produce only AC. It's called either AC or DC to illustrate if it has a dedicated coil.... If someone wants to replace a burnt out stator and has a DC DCI, they should get DC stator... It's the same thing for half/full wave.... There is no such thing as a 2 wire full wave GY6 rectifier. All GY6 Full wave R/R are fed from a three phase supply. That three phase supply is the Stator. the 11, 12 and 18 pole stators are all three phase. 6 and 8 pole are only single phase and there are no 2 wire GY6 R/R's that will produce a full wave. ======================= Now, let's get with the facts of this thread.... The OP said he recently installed an 11 pole stator. My advice to him was that if he wanted to capture the most power he can, he would get a full wave R/R to match his three phase stator. Do you disagree with that advice? Wether or not you or TVNACMAN calls them AC or DC is meaningless... Every single parts store (except johns) list them as AC or DC... This helps the buyer match them to their currect CDI... Not to indicate they produce DC current... |
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Post by JerryScript on Feb 4, 2015 11:55:56 GMT -5
For anyone interested in what the difference is full wave and half wave, here's a short but good article with diagrams that explains it well: www.electronics-tutorials.ws/diode/diode_6.htmlBasically, your headlights flicker at low RPM in an AC system (lights not on with key on, only with engine on) due to only half the power being converted to DC in a standard half wave rectifier. A full wave R/R could lower your cost of replacement items such as headlights, so it could be a good investment if the additional costs are not too significant. Personally, I would prefer to make extra power available by reducing the existing drain, using LEDs is one such option. A radical idea: For the expense and trouble of modifying your stator to work with a full wave R/R, you could use thermal tiles on the exhaust system and a joule thief circuit to run all lights but the headlights, freeing up a lot of juice! |
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
