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Post by alleyoop on Oct 14, 2014 16:34:47 GMT -5
Any leak espescially Vacuum leak will DRAMTICALLY effect pumping fuel to the carb IF your scooter has a FUEL PUMP(Gas tank Lower than the Carb). If your scooter has a PETCOCK(Gas tan Higher than the Carb) then you have a simple gravity fed system which is not dependant on pumping it is just an OFF and ON fuel system. The vacuum pulls the diaphgram up and allows fuel to flow from the tank side to the other side of the PETCOCK and to the carb. On the gravity fed systems you just have to make sure that the Fuel Hose is as straight as possibley from the tank all the way to the carbs fuel inlet connector. NO UPS and DOWNS on the hose it is GRAVITY that sends the fuel down to the carb.
The FUEL PUMP all you have to be concerned about is the FUEL HOSE FROM the tank to the PUMP is also a straight shot. The pump cannot pump gas to the carb IF there is no gas to pump at the pump.
Don't worry the pumps are pretty strong MY gas tank is way up front right behind the front tire and my pump is about 1 foot from the gas tank on the bottom frame rail. Then it runs 3-3 1/2 feet along the rail to right in front of the cvt cover then up where I have my Fuel Filter then ANOTHER FOOT UP to the carb. Haven't had a problem in 5 years now and by the way the same pump that the trike came with.
Alleyoop
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Post by dmartin95 on Oct 14, 2014 22:16:30 GMT -5
Any leak espescially Vacuum leak will DRAMTICALLY effect pumping fuel to the carb IF your scooter has a FUEL PUMP(Gas tank Lower than the Carb). Alleyoop Hey Alley, I went to get some pics of the fuel assembly and realized I would need a lot of pictures, so I just made a quick youtube video detailing the entire fuel layout and illustrating what Vacuum line I replaced. |
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Post by dmartin95 on Oct 14, 2014 22:25:41 GMT -5
In the Video I call my coil a CDI, just a brain fart.
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Post by xyshannen on Oct 15, 2014 12:25:06 GMT -5
I have to wonder why yours (the Heritage) has the B case. I guess they upped their quality from my year, 2008 to yours. I mean to look at it, we have the same exact scooter. Just an FYI, with my build I'm installing a 30mm 3 inch riser to get my intake up off of the engine so my air intake will clear that dang engine rocker mount, also to make working on my carb easier. Also installing a larger carb gets rid of the need for that vacuum line that you found bad. In final thought, it also will get my carb up even or a bit higher than the fuel pump. And now I'm kinda wondering if both factors (height, and loss of vacuum line) might help our problem. I buggered up the bottom oil ring yesterday trying to install the jug on the new piton so I had to order a new ring set. "IF" my new rings gets here by Sat it will still be next week before I can have it all finished to find out how it runs. Just for fun...my name is Shannen,,the xy eliminates confusion on the boards that I might be a chick.....it happens  |
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Post by alleyoop on Oct 15, 2014 12:48:22 GMT -5
Dmartin,
Yes if that Vacuum hose going to the ACV valve on the carb was leaking it will cause problems.
To verify if the fuel is being pumped to the carb good, take the Fuel hose off the carb and put it in a container and crank the motor over. If the fuel streams out then your ok with the way it is setup. I personally do not like those kind of setups because the fuel has to go up to the fuel pump for the pump to have fuel to pump. So the pump is actually trying to do TWO things suck fuel from the tank to the pump and then pump the fuel to the carb.
I read what Shannen said about a bigger carb that it would get rid of the Vacuum line that was bad, that would be true if the carb had a pump. Most carbs have the ACV valve to feed fuel on deceleration to stop backfiring, popping and running lean when the throttle is suddenly closed .
Alleyoop
Alleyoop
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Post by xyshannen on Oct 15, 2014 12:58:27 GMT -5
Right, but most of the larger 28-30mm carbs including the 30mm I have, don't use this vacuum line. Now I know what your going to say about not needing a bigger carbs...but "IF" you can get it to work I'm just wondering if it wouldn't help. Obviously these carbs are too big for a stock 150cc, but with a BBK and other performance mods...well yeah. I know of at least 2 who do have 30mms working on engines with less CCs than you. I also have some thought on some things you can do to help make them work (better) that I am trying and I will let you know of what I find out once my engine is back together and I can do some testing.
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Post by alleyoop on Oct 15, 2014 14:28:18 GMT -5
Yep, I know they call the pumpers performance carbs why I have no idea, all they do is squirt ONE time when you pull the throttle far enough to push the plunger down and you can adjust when, It is for a sudden opening of the throttle so it does not stumble, but they do nothing for feeding fuel on decel, is why you hear on most that have the pumpers POPs coming down to Idle unless they have the IDLE high to allow enough fuel to still be sucked out.
As far as to big of a carb installed on a motor, If someone comes on and has a problem and I find that the problem is due to over carbing I will NOW ONLY MENTION IT ONCE to them and suggest the right size carb so a pissing match does not come about.
People do not know and realize that a bigger carb creates different flow of air in the venturi and pressure due to it's bigger size. There brains is telling them bigger carb more fuel more power, they do not understand how a motor really works and what it can take or not take to produce the most power. Not only that but the flow and opening from the bigger carb to the intake of the motor NOW has to match and be the same size or AT LEAST smaller than the OPENING on the Motors INTAKE. If the motors intake opening is smaller than the intake manifold to accept the bigger carb you just made things worse because now you just caused a restriction of air and fuel. Most folks do not even think about such things and or know.
Alleyoop
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Post by dmartin95 on Oct 15, 2014 15:47:04 GMT -5
I have to wonder why yours (the Heritage) has the B case. I guess they upped their quality from my year, 2008 to yours. I mean to look at it, we have the same exact scooter. Just for fun...my name is Shannen,,the xy eliminates confusion on the boards that I might be a chick.....it happens I'm not sure why we have different motors, but if I had to wager a guess, I would say it's one of two things... From what I have gathered, the GY6-B case was introduced in 2007 by BenNeng of Zhongneng Industry group. Yours being a 2008, and even actually manufactured in 07, or even 06, it could be the case that the engine just wasn't available then.... Second, even though our scoots look identical, they could be assembled by different suppliers spitting copies, of copies.... What I mean by that is my Scooter is a Yamaha Zuma "Clone". The Bintelli havoc looks a lot like the zuma, but there's also other distributor's selling other clones of the ZUMA such as the Roketa MC-31--150cc , Here's one that's even electric.... So even though our scoots look a-like, they could have very different internals... The B case engine in the heritage has a 12-pole, DC stator/magneto for example. Yours I would wager is 8-pole and is AC, not DC. However, there's also a lot if similarities. If you look at Katasroffs Scoot, Yours, MY wifes Heritage, in addition to looking a like, they all have the same fuel delivery system and all have the problem of cutting out at WOT.. ---------------------------- My name BTW is Dan, I go by Dmartin95 because it's the same handle I use on all internet forums. I'm an administrator at thespaceport.us and prefer using these types of forums, instead of facebook and such..... |
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Post by dmartin95 on Oct 15, 2014 16:12:26 GMT -5
Dmartin, Yes if that Vacuum hose going to the ACV valve on the carb was leaking it will cause problems. To verify if the fuel is being pumped to the carb good, take the Fuel hose off the carb and put it in a container and crank the motor over. If the fuel streams out then your ok with the way it is setup. I personally do not like those kind of setups because the fuel has to go up to the fuel pump for the pump to have fuel to pump. So the pump is actually trying to do TWO things suck fuel from the tank to the pump and then pump the fuel to the carb. I read what Shannen said about a bigger carb that it would get rid of the Vacuum line that was bad, that would be true if the carb had a pump. Most carbs have the ACV valve to feed fuel on deceleration to stop backfiring, popping and running lean when the throttle is suddenly closed . Alleyoop Alleyoop Alley, thanks for the feedback! I kind of went on rambling in my video so thanks for taking the time to view it. The scooter starts, idles and runs perfect until it gets driven at WOT... And when it cuts out at WOT is completely Random and does not happen when it's cold.... The Scooter is getting fuel and pulling the fuel line wouldn't reveal much because this is an issue that only happens at WOT... I mean seriously, If I just started this thing up and was showing it someone, they would never be able to tell it has any kind of issue. Or is there some reason I'm not understanding why you want me to pull the fuel line off? When it comes the electricals of a scoot, all I need is the wiring diagram and a multi-meter and I can guarantee that I can find even the most stubbornest of Gremlins.... But when it comes to internals of these GY6's I'm very new to this and really appreciate you explaining what this stuff is and how it works... No worries about me screwing anything up with Mods, like a BBK or bigger carbs....  Not because I don't like that kind of stuff, but just because it's something I've never done before and would need to learn before I go ripping into my scoot. Now that I have repaired that Vacuum line, the problem may be fixed altogether... If that didn't fix it, either there's a design flaw in that style of fuel delivery system (I say that based on other who have the same style of scoot with the same exact problem), carb gremlin of fuel pump gremlin... You've been doing these forums for a long time I assume? How many other threads have you seen with people losing power at WOT with these types of scoots? And just for the record, I will not be getting involved in any pissing matches. When it comes to these scoots, I will yield the high ground to you every-time and take what you say with seriousness. I know how these forums work and know your sharing this advice on your dime and your time... I would not have you wasting time on me in a pissing match! I have no doubt you know your stuff and appreciate it! |
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Post by alleyoop on Oct 15, 2014 16:36:15 GMT -5
What did you mean with this? Cold temp wise or Cold motor?
If you mean cold engine wise then I would think it does not happen due to the Enricher feeding it extra fuel for about the 1st 5 minutes or so until it cuts off the extra fuel. Which means it needs more fuel.
One thing you can when this starts to happen is BACK OFF the throttle about 1/8-1/4 and hold it there.
Now pay attention to what the motor does:
A. If it speeds up it is LEAN needs more fuel
B. If it sputters and or just settles down and runs at that speed it is RICH.
If you mean cold temp but hot temp then I would suspect the gas tank is not venting and the flow of fuel from the gas tank is not flowing smoothly. In this case you could try cracking open the gas cap to allow it to vent. Or if the tank was ever overfilled the gas could have splashed into the vent hose and soaked the charcoal canister. In this case the canister is garbage and you may as well take the whole EVAP system off and just put a fuel filter on the end of the vent hose coming off the gas tank and zip tie out of the way.
Alleyoop
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Post by dmartin95 on Oct 15, 2014 19:02:48 GMT -5
What did you mean with this? Cold temp wise or Cold motor? Is what I mean is that I can go out to garage, fire the scoot right up with no cranking, and it will sit there and purr like a kitten... Ok, 5 minutes later, she's warmed up and I go out riding.... Scooters is running perfectly at this point... I hit the road... Open the throttle all the way and I can drive for maybe 1 mile, or 20 miles, but at some point and completely random (and without fail I'll add), The engine will just seem to die. If I only tried backing the throttle down 1/8~1/4, she would stall. I have to completely back off the throttle and then she comes back to life... I can then drive another 1, or even 20 miles and then it will happen again. Now, take note, I have already tried adjusting the air/fuel mix, in both directions. Turning it one way caused the engine to rev up and down and turning it the other way, it acted as if I was adjusting the idle screw because the back wheel would start spinning, I tried to compensate the wheel spin by also adjusting the idle screw, but then the engine would just stall. Put both screws back to original and she runs as if new, that is until you hit the road at WOT. I'm like 99% sure the problem stems from a loss of Vacuum at sustained WOT. I may have discovered where that Vacuum leak was coming from... I will not be able to know until I get good weather. It is not something I can test out in the garage. If this Vacuum line doesn't fix it, I will keep trying things till I get the problem licked. Next up is a fuel pump swap, if that doesn't work, I'm going to relocate a new gas tank to above the carb. |
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Post by alleyoop on Oct 15, 2014 19:14:49 GMT -5
The Vacuum hose leak you found would cause problems when demand for good gas flow would be required so I also hope that is all that is wrong. If it ran good say months ago and just recently started this cutting out I think you found the culprit that is causing vacuum loss at sustained wot.
If not there are other means of making sure it gets enough fuel at sustained wot runs.
Alleyoop
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Post by dmartin95 on Oct 15, 2014 19:54:56 GMT -5
If it ran good say months ago and just recently started this cutting out I think you found the culprit that is causing vacuum loss at sustained wot. Thats the thing, I didn't buy it brand new. I bought it used from Grand Rapids Scooter (Jason was selling it on consignment)... But it was in like new condition with right around 100 miles on it. It's a 2011. I was really surprised to discover this hose in this condition because when I purchased the scoot, first thing I did was inspect the lines. But this was dry rot and was not new. I just missed it on my first inspection. It has done this the entire time I've owned the scooter. It could be the reason the original owner sold it in fact My wife has got to the point where she knows just where she can keep the throttle without causing it to cut out. Of course that slows how fast we can go. And that's why I'm glad guys (and maybe even gals) like you all are around to help out! Cause if this vacuum hose didn't fix the problem, I will need to pick your brains! Check out this thread started by Katastroff. Look at his avatar. Look at XyShannens Avatar. We are all having the same issue.... Coincidence? My opinion, No. I would bet I could find more on this board as well If I got to digging through old threads. Do you know how to install an electronic fuel pump in a scooter with a fuel delivery setup like mine? |
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Post by xyshannen on Oct 15, 2014 22:09:42 GMT -5
Yep, I know they call the pumpers performance carbs why I have no idea, all they do is squirt ONE time when you pull the throttle far enough to push the plunger down and you can adjust when, It is for a sudden opening of the throttle so it does not stumble, but they do nothing for feeding fuel on decel, is why you hear on most that have the pumpers POPs coming down to Idle unless they have the IDLE high to allow enough fuel to still be sucked out. As far as to big of a carb installed on a motor, If someone comes on and has a problem and I find that the problem is due to over carbing I will NOW ONLY MENTION IT ONCE to them and suggest the right size carb so a pissing match does not come about. People do not know and realize that a bigger carb creates different flow of air in the venturi and pressure due to it's bigger size. There brains is telling them bigger carb more fuel more power, they do not understand how a motor really works and what it can take or not take to produce the most power. Not only that but the flow and opening from the bigger carb to the intake of the motor NOW has to match and be the same size or AT LEAST smaller than the OPENING on the Motors INTAKE. If the motors intake opening is smaller than the intake manifold to accept the bigger carb you just made things worse because now you just caused a restriction of air and fuel. Most folks do not even think about such things and or know. Alleyoop Sorry if I hit a nerve, not my intention! What I'm doing is pretty much exactly what you explained being a big issue with using these larger carbs. Most just slap them on with no thought about the needs of how the carb works and the air/fuel mix in the head. I'm actually having my head hand port matched to the intake of a 30mm intake manifold. Well it's actually about a 32mm after all the porting was done. If it doesn't work then, I'll just put the stock carb back on and break out my jet set and get her tuned up proper. The way I see it is at worst, I'll have a very good free flowing head. But having that done on top of my current mods plus the addition of a BBK, a very free flowing head, and a larger cam, I'm hopeful it will work. Wow Dan, you've done your research that's for sure! I was unaware that the B case wasn't made. That makes sense. One thing tho, my scoot is a DC fired coil. I haven't checked my stator yet so I do wonder if it's an 11 or 8 pole... I'll for sure be pulling the fan off tomorrow to check. I'm pretty sure your damaged line wasn't the source of our problems. That line, if leaking, would cause the engine to run poorly regardless of WOT or not. I've actually forgotten to hook that back up causing my scoot to idle very poorly and spit and sputter in all ranges of the throttle. |
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Post by katastroff on Oct 16, 2014 7:54:37 GMT -5
Having a carb that's too big is like trying to pick your nose with your thumb.
When running at WOT you have less vacuum then when running on iddle. This will make:
1-tunning your carb a real pain.
2-Unless you have a top mounted gas tank, i dont think any and vacuum pump will be able to cope with it.
Just my 2cents.
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
