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Post by xyshannen on Oct 10, 2014 11:41:23 GMT -5
Reading through this I was starting to question the logic of it all. But after reading about the shop and all of the expertise you have available, mod the he11 out of it  Yeah this isn't my first rodeo. I'm just having to learn the does and don'ts of a 150cc engine. I'm the type who never pays someone to work on a car for me. The only time I ever did was when installing a posi traction in my front wheel drive tiburon.. I also, at the same time installed a transmission kit in my 6 speed manual. I had a guy who I know that builds trannys for Indy cars do the work. Getting into trannies is a little more complicated than I wanted to deal with. That car with the other mods I did myself would eat built mustangs. dmartin95 I'm not going all out on the gauges because it would ruin the classic look of my scoot. The only gauge I'v added is a tach and I want a temp gauge. The way I see it is a vacuum gauge isn't necessary. First if you have a vacuum problem you will know it without the need of a gauge to tell you. Second The only thing I need vacuum for is to run my fuel pump. Of which I plan on replacing with an electric one. It's totally not designed to handle the fuel needs of my engine after what I've done already before installing the BBK. WOT causes me to loose vacuum and my pump stops working until I let off the throttle. I forsee this being a bigger problem once the BBK is installed.. Having said all that..if I had a modern looking scoot, I would love to add the all the gauges (lover your digital one BTW) and do just like what you are doing. |
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Post by rockynv on Oct 10, 2014 11:42:16 GMT -5
If I was going to go through all the time and expense I would have been tempted to start off with a Metropolitan or maybe a Mohito for the better base metals in the frames to weld on to. The Lance frame is pretty mild steel and not that substantial. Most of my Lance Vintage was pretty much stripping out at all the major attaching points by 5,000 miles.
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Post by xyshannen on Oct 10, 2014 14:02:36 GMT -5
rockynv I too would have loved to start out with a better scoot. But being on disability money is an issue. Sure I can spend x amount each month on mods and what have you, but it's hard for me to spend more than 1k at any given time. So at $800 the Lance was at the right price. The cost of the B block is going to eat up my mad money for next month. So it will be the following month I buy the BBk and a few other things. I'll do my build on it one month at a time, ending with the frame and install mods on the scoot in spring. For the frame mods I plan on either adding to or replacing the stress points of the frame with chromoly tubing, and at the same time relocate the motor mounts and suspension mount 6 inches behind where they currently are, making my wheel base six inches plus what ever the long case provides longer. When I'm done most of the Lance you will see will look like the factory original, minus the leather work (that is more to come) but under the plastics I will have a bad*ss scooter that's more than capable of riding 2 up at 50+ MPH.. You see one of my major reasons for doing all of this is that I never really plan on putting this scoot on the interstate,,but here in Jacksonville, if you want to get anywhere you have to be able to do at least 50 MPH for long periods or else you risk getting run over. Adding a second person to a stock 150cc makes this a problem. What I'm doing now is just to give me a little more power for riding during winter. I'll just store this engine as a backup once the B block is installed.
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Post by rockynv on Oct 11, 2014 8:50:11 GMT -5
I would have just saved up a few more months of mad money and aimed higher myself. The Lance was my original starting point and with the quality of the frame materials I quickly discounted it as a platform to build on. I paid $400 for mine and in retrospect that was about $200 more than I should have considering what it cost to repair it and the endless hours I spent keeping it running. Quite literally it cost me more to maintain in the few thousand miles I rode it than it has in 25,000 miles on my current bike and it still needed more work. Most of the threaded inserts holding the body panels on needed to be replaced (new one welded on). The muffler was welded back together a number of times, rear fender (tire hugger) had fallen off twice and lost the last time as it mounts on the muffler plus the frame is only rated for 330 lbs. Rear brake on the Vintage is only to provide some directional stability and not for much of any real stopping power either. Knowing what I know from stripping one down numerous times I can't really give a high endorsement to putting too much effort into one aside from what you already have done. They are pretty and can be fun but not a really well engineered machine.
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Post by xyshannen on Oct 11, 2014 9:17:35 GMT -5
Wow I'm thinking you must have gotten one of the ones that eked by what QC they had back then. Yours was a 07 right? Mine is an 08 and seriously doesn't have no where near the problems yours did. All the body screws seem solid, as well as the other screw mounting problems you had.. I am not going to mess around with the valves like you did and am just opting to replace the whole top end with quality parts from scrappydog. Hopefully saving me some headache. I'm also wondering if the difference between 07 to 08 maybe they got better QC.
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Post by dmartin95 on Oct 11, 2014 10:17:07 GMT -5
Wow I'm thinking you must have gotten one of the ones that eked by what QC they had back then. Y My wifes BMS Heritage is a 2011 and I don't think it went through any kind of QC... I am constantly finding bolts and nuts that need to be re-tightened.... I have even had parts fall off... But, the one positive is that it has the B-case motor factory installed. I paid $900 for it and it only had around 100 miles on it. ------------------------------ The same thing still happens to my wifes. I tried Alleys suggestion of adjusting air/fuel mix and it didn't fix the problem (it actually made it worse)..... At this point, I'm starting to think it's just a design flaw in these types of scooters. I have seen other members with the same problem. The problem is, with the fuel tank on the bottom, at WOT there isn't enough Vacuum. IMO, the way to fix it is relocate the fuel tank to above the fuel pump. I'm going to buy a (secondary) tank off Ebay and put it in the under seat compartment. I'm going to use her original as a reserve and an electronic fuel transfer pump to get it up to her top tank. I'm hoping that if the tank is up higher, the pump will not have to work as hard and hopefully will not lose fuel pressure at WOT. Thoughts? |
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Post by xyshannen on Oct 11, 2014 10:58:50 GMT -5
Bolts comming loose is a common problem from most chinese made scooters. Yeah it sucks but a simple fix is to go through the whole scoot and install lock washers and a bit of locktight to every bolt. I've already started this process. The QC part comes into effect with the actual frame materials and mounted screw fixtures being of good enough quality that you don't have issues with them falling off of the frame from shotty welds, like what Rocky is talking about..unless I completely misunderstood what he was saying.
As for the fuel problem, I agree this is a common problem with these scoots, and you may very well be on to something. I do like what you are thinking as this would give you a larger fuel capacity...It kind of sucks having to stop for gas every 60 or so miles. As for me, I'm going to add a 6-8 PSI electronic pump and with that being way more PSI than these little engines need a simple regulator should tame it down enough. Only time and testing will tell. Please do make a thread about your endeavor so myself and others with this problem can keep an eye on your findings.
Just an FYI, doing some basic performance mods and installing the 115mm variator, I can run at 45 MPH all day and only cut out if I try to run 55+ for more than a short burst. Before doing the engine mods I couldn't run at 45 mph for more than a few minutes.
edit: And Rocky as far as my rear tire hugger, I had to remove it once I put on a performance muffler. I then had to cut the mount from the stock muffler and then I was able to reinstall the tire huger. After about 400 miles all still looks good...well that is before I tore it all apart again. Also just to add, my rear break works great. I often stop with only that as I don't like stopping hard with my front break unless I really need to stop. And the front break works so well that I could very easily flip it it not for the ABS (that I don't wholly trust).
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Post by dmartin95 on Oct 11, 2014 13:09:59 GMT -5
As for the fuel problem, I agree this is a common problem with these scoots, and you may very well be on to something. I do like what you are thinking as this would give you a larger fuel capacity...It kind of sucks having to stop for gas every 60 or so miles. As for me, I'm going to add a 6-8 PSI electronic pump and with that being way more PSI than these little engines need a simple regulator should tame it down enough. Only time and testing will tell. Please do make a thread about your endeavor so myself and others with this problem can keep an eye on your findings.Just an FYI, doing some basic performance mods and installing the 115mm variator, I can run at 45 MPH all day and only cut out if I try to run 55+ for more than a short burst. Before doing the engine mods I couldn't run at 45 mph for more than a few minutes. I will. I'll start a thread and catalog the whole procedure. And, if it fixes the problem I'll ask the staff around here to pin it. There are a lot of these retro clones... BTW, do you what Scooter these modeled after? I.E. My Havoc is a Yamaha Zuma clone. Are these retro styles, cloned around the Vespa? I had thought about adding an electronic pump but I don't how much extra juice the stator produces, nor do I know how to pull it off. Most pumps I found were in tank models that would require serious mods. In fact, in my search is how I came across the electronic fuel transfer pump. I had the thought of just swapping it over to an EFI but ecotrons says the EFI can not be installed on a scooter with the gas tank on the bottom. Anyhow, if you do use a pump, please start a thread about as I would like to see how you pull it off without using some sort of injection system. As far as performance goes, her scoot has no mods and does 55MPH exact. I think it may governed because it goes the same speed with me or her, and she outweighs me by quite a bit. Perhaps the CDI map limits the revolutions or something...... The amount of time she can go at WOT before it cuts out is variable. My Havoc however goes 62MPH when it's colder than 60* on level surface. It has no mods what so ever. But here's a head scratcher, I have 2 identical havocs, but my back-up Havoc will max out at about 53~57MPH... 2 identical scoots but one goes 5MPH faster (reliably)..... |
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Post by xyshannen on Oct 11, 2014 13:54:47 GMT -5
dmartin95 I forgot to mention that before mods I couldn't run at 45 mph with my 230 pound 6'2" rear on my bike for more than a few minutes before it shutting down. Now I can break 65 but it won't do those speeds for long due to this vacuum issue. Upping the performance/HP of my engine put it in better condition to haul my large ars up to higher speeds with less effort before I have to open the throttle up enough for me to loose vacuum. Yes your stock CDI limits your scoots speed, but I was always under the impression that it does so by RPM and not speed. After going through 2 ebay CDIs I went with the DC variable timing one from our fellow board member TVnactman (think that's right lol) www.nycscooterparts.com/#!product/prd1/1565684485/variable-timing-performance-cdi-nycsp0007 That works freakin awesome. As for the fuel pump, seriously unless you have a massive pump it shouldn't really be too much of a drain. I'm planing on just wiring directly to the battery. Any of the ebay iinline pumps should work. I mean if it's a fuel delivery issue, then pumping the bajeesus out of some gas to your carb should solve it The regulator should provide for enough fuel at any given RPM depending on the engines demand. If for some odd reason the fuel pump puts too much of a strain on your stator, there are always bigger and better statore to install. I'm already looking at the 11 pole just cause. Now I'm no certified mechanic and know very little when it comes to these 150cc engines. All of what I'm saying is the conclusion I get after tossing the problem around to several other mechanics who do this for a living. If anyone reading this would like to chime in and correct me, please by all means do so. You won't hurt my feelings. Now where in the heck is that mailman with my rocker assembly and new head. *#%$@*
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Post by scooter on Oct 11, 2014 14:18:48 GMT -5
I do like what you are thinking as this would give you a larger fuel capacity...It kind of sucks having to stop for gas every 60 or so miles. That's no fun. I see a lot of people saying they have one gallon tanks. Mine holds three gallons and goes right at 300km, or 186 miles, on a tank. |
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Post by scooter on Oct 11, 2014 14:21:59 GMT -5
I was breaking your balls , the difference between the cranks is longer and shorter stroke . If the stroker is going to be put in the engine let that be the first mod you do . John HAHAHA I was going "Whuuuhh?"  |
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Post by tvnacman on Oct 12, 2014 8:36:01 GMT -5
I agree with fuel starvation at wot , I differ from you guys as my tank is above my carb . However mine has the vac operated fuel valve . As mentioned above it starves for fuel at wot , I find if I back off a drop its better without breaking up. I have thought of putting the manual fuel valve . So I went and bought a vac gauge in an effort to get my carb dialed in . Everything your saying (Xys) I saw with the vac gauge .
I have done the 11pole stator and sell them . When I tested them I found at about 125w load it stayed 13.3vdc maybe I could have added some more load and been ok . From a sales standpoint I would rather down play the numbers and be safe then up play them and disappoint the buyer .
I really like the EFI idea , however the cost I can not bring myself to part with the coin . I have been looking for a wrecked vespa to do the conversion .
John
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Post by dmartin95 on Oct 12, 2014 10:13:11 GMT -5
Everything your saying (Xys) I saw with the vac gauge . John Why I got a vac gauge was because Advance Auto is having an awesome sale on all their sunpro gauges. I actually went there to buy the 3, mini gauge set for $19.99 . It comes w/oil temp/oil pressure and a volt meter. Also, you don't need any senders as the set comes with them already. When I was in there, I happened to notice they had a vac gauge $12.99 .... That's a very hard price to beat and all I need to do to install it is poke a hole in my intake. They are illuminated and each one has a 12vdc 5watt light. That is 20 watts I didn't want to spare so I just swapped the bulbs with 10mm LEDs (only 200ma each) and I put in green LEDs to match my paint scheme. So, my entire instrument cluster lights up green for under 1 watt! I bought the black project box off ebay to the door for 7bux! Here, I'll share some pics of my progress....     |
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Post by dmartin95 on Oct 12, 2014 10:25:22 GMT -5
As for the fuel pump, seriously unless you have a massive pump it shouldn't really be too much of a drain. I'm planing on just wiring directly to the battery. Any of the ebay iinline pumps should work. I mean if it's a fuel delivery issue, then pumping the bajeesus out of some gas to your carb should solve it The regulator should provide for enough fuel at any given RPM depending on the engines demand. If for some odd reason the fuel pump puts too much of a strain on your stator, there are always bigger and better statore to install. I'm already looking at the 11 pole just cause. Perhaps you can explain to me how the regulator works? When I said I don't know how to install a fuel pump on a GY6 is because I don't know what would control the fuel flow with an electronic pump.... I.E. If the pump is 30PSI does the regulator control the flow and only take what it needs? Wouldn't the pump be trying to constantly push in all that fuel even at idle? Would the regulator hold it back? |
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Post by xyshannen on Oct 12, 2014 10:33:56 GMT -5
First off 30 PSI would be way too much and I don't know if a regulator would be of much help, and if it did you probably would burn up your pump. There are smaller pumps out there. I know another member hear having similar issues (but his turned out to be his CDI, but I don't think he solved all his issues yet) tried a small 4-6 PSI unit and still had problems. There are 6-8 PSI pumps out there, and theroetically should have enough cahonies for these 150cc engines.
I really don't know exactly how a regulator works, meaning I can't explain the exact mechanical function of one. But yes it will hold back the amount of fuel coming from your pump and only deliver what your engine needs. At least that's what's been explained to me by the old timers
At any case, works or doesn't work, the combined cost of the 2 are cheap enough that it's well worth a try, and a of a lot easier than adding a second tank.
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