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Post by JerryScript on Mar 17, 2014 13:02:08 GMT -5
What is your idea of the perfect scooter?
That is the basic concept I would like to explore here, in the hopes of coming up with a crowd-sourced design for a better scooter. Would you change the basic scooter design? Would you change the frame, the position of major components, perhaps the position of the rider?
To begin, we need to decide on a baseline design to work from. I think this is much easier than working from the ground up, and takes advantage of years of research and development already made by scooter manufacturers. Off the top of my head that would mean using either a Vespa, Aprilla, or basic TaoTao design as the starting point. Perhaps someone has a specific model that is as close to a "basic" design as we can come they could suggest. I'm not completely opposed to choosing more than one base design to work from, it's hard to please everyone with a single design, but I really would like to keep it to a single model if we can. We may have to do one for 50-125cc and one for 150-250cc, once you get above 250cc it's becoming more like a touring motorcycle, and I think is beyond the scope of this project.
When making suggestions as to changes to the basic design, we should give good reasoning, and attempt to keep "it looks better" in it's proper relation to "it works better" in order to end up with a reliable and efficient design. If you can provide sketches with before and after, it will help everyone else understand your proposed changes, after all a picture is worth a thousand words.
Keep in mind that crowd-sourced means there will ultimately be multiple versions of this by members who have strong ideas about a particular design change. So even if your changes don't make into the "official build", you can share them as you like, and don't take or give offense to anyone doing likewise.
With the vast amounts of experience, tastes, and preferences we have gathered together in this forum, I think we can work together to come up with one or two dramatically improved scooter designs!
So if you would like to contribute your ideas, what do you think we should use as a baseline(s)?
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Post by PCBGY6 on Mar 17, 2014 14:51:19 GMT -5
This topic could get very interesting.
Since you have the 50cc and the 150cc seperated in category if would suggest doing 50cc in its own class because in many states they are viewed as a moped/scooter.
I could also see lumping the 50ccs with the 150ccs because they share the same frame and body by a lot of companies.
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Post by JerryScript on Mar 17, 2014 15:49:13 GMT -5
I think your argument for categorizing by sizes sharing the same frame is the best one to follow for design purposes. Legalities vary not only by state but also by municipality, so that is one set of bases that's impossible to cover.
So one category for up to 150cc, and one from there up to 250cc? Do 200cc compare frame-wise to 250cc?
Any suggestions on base models to start from?
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Post by urbanmadness on Mar 18, 2014 20:49:24 GMT -5
Why not have a universal frame that accepts either engine.? By the same token, I'd like to see a low cost 50 to 150cc conversion kit crowd sourced. Plug and play FI for 50, 150 and 250's would be another interesting crowd source project.
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Post by JerryScript on Mar 19, 2014 12:57:29 GMT -5
I'm not sure a uni frame can be designed to accept both engines and still be better than one designed specifically for the appropriate engine size. I don't see too many threads about doing such a swap, so perhaps that would be better suited to a project of it's own.
I'll try to get some technical images of basic frames up in the next day or two.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 19, 2014 23:26:25 GMT -5
This is INTERESTING!
As for sizes, there are MANY scooters that share frames... My old Kymco "Grandvista" or "Grand Dink" 250 shares the frame and body with the GV 125, 150 and 250. I'll bet a 125 THAT heavy is a tad slow... The seldom-seen, but OH, so cool Genuine "Buddy" comes in 125, 150 and 170cc versions I believe... All tiny, nimble on 10" rims and FAST!
Many ideas will translate into various sizes, just that the ideas might have to be size-modified for proportioning on small and large scoots. If I can eek out some free time, I'll try to do some sketches. I do have some definite ideas both engineering AND cosmetics for scooters.
There are decidedly different parameters for short, "city" scoots, and long, "touring" models... But many features can work for both.
I hope MANY riders will contribute to this thread. Could be, manufacturers would take notice. Ideas are always welcome... Please do contribute regardless of your artistic ability! It's ideas that count...
Ride safe, and get those old crayons out!
Leo in Texas
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Post by urbanmadness on Mar 19, 2014 23:41:42 GMT -5
maybe a modular fame system for 50's and 150's. The 125, 150 and 170 would probably share the same case, if they are GY6 based.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 23, 2014 11:55:39 GMT -5
OK, riding pals... Here are two ideas I've been thinking of for some time. These are both geared to the GY6 150cc type scooter, as it is my "generic favorite" for size, handling and affordability. HOWEVER... They (especially the Chinese) versions leave a lot to be desired, AND I believe some of this could be addressed without adding a lot to the cost. Please realize these drawings are quick-studies for concept only... Drawing these up with no references, I paid little attention to proper proportions or authentic parts-detail. I don't have time to make them "absolute" in detail... They're just for fun, and to stimulate others' ideas...
First, I offer for your consideration a "bare-bones" basic-transportation ride.
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Low and squatty, cheap and simple, THIS is to me, the very ESSENSE of scooting. Inspired by the Ruckus-type ride, I would add the following factory modifications:
Replace the "scooter" front fork with one that passes through BOTH upper and lower triple-trees. I showed a "Springer" just because the cosmetics fit the design, but a standard hydraulic fork would be fine (and would handle better). This would be SO easy to do from the factory, simply using a standard hydraulic or springer fork as featured on thousands of Chinese 250 MOTORCYCLES. Also, I'd use the rest of the MOTORCYCLE front-end, including headlight, turn-signals, bars and instrument cluster (analog-gauges in tin buckets).
I'm surprised that I don't see custom scooters using "regular" motorcycle front-forks/triple-trees. This simple and attractive mod would increase handling and safety, not to mention improving appearance.
The mechanical changes I'd make would be to punch out the GY6 150 with bigger bore and stroke, to a full 200cc. Simple to do at the factory, and hopefully would bump up the 8 to 10hp 150 to at least 15hp. This might just end the need to "upgrade" to a 200 or 250 just to run with city traffic. I'd face the carb forward for easy maintenance, and if practical, go with a 4-valve head. Fuel-injection would be great, but this scooter concept is designed for inexpensive production, so a standard carburetor would be OK. Also, I'd be SURE to provide a FULL-DIAMETER exhaust header. THAT mod made more difference on my old 150 than ANY other!
I'd feature a good old plain 2-gallon round-steel fuel tank for better range, simplicity of gravity-feed and period-correct appearance. This concept is aimed at the rider who likes it simple and clean, light and nimble in the city, but still capable of 60mph running when needed.
For seating, there's a solo-seat on hairpin springs, with grab-rail and a pillion-pad for a passenger (or to strap stuff to). NO seat is more comfortable than a sprung "solo-seat".
It would roll on cheap, basic stamped-steel rims (12 to 14-inch) to keep them "scooter-sized". Could be painted, but chromed would be nice. No alloy wheels needed, just old-school simple. And of course, WIDE whitewalls... LOL.
Oh, and ONE other SIMPLE but IMPORTANT mod... A full-size Harley-Davidson style side-stand... At least two-feet long, ROCK-SOLID, that allows the scoot to LEAN WAY over SO FAR that it's ABSOLUTELY anchored!!! No wind blowing the scoot over, no little kids climbing on and tipping it over... A REAL side-stand! ____________________________________________________________
Next concept: the "Vespucci Amerigo Solo"... Looking somewhat "Italianesque" I couldn't resist naming this one after the stalwart AMERIGO VESPUCCI for whom our fine country is named... Aren't you glad our forefathers didn't call "America" by his LAST name? We COULD be living in "Vespucciland"... EEEEWWWW!
how to screenshot on windows
The whole purpose of THIS one is to cater to the 150 and up rider who never rides two-up, but wants SERIOUS cargo-carrying capacity. After 7 years on the scooter sites, I have seen a great many posts concerning the limited cargo-capacity of these scooters, and very few riders actually ride two-up on the 150's.
So... Here is a design for the SOLO rider. Lazy-Boy lounge-chair comfort, and ALL the space behind the rider is TRUNK! It could conceivably offer as much carrying-space as a compact-car trunk, and would still have a luggage-rack to strap things to. This design would be great for pulling a trailer too, OR for adding a side-car for a passenger, or even MORE cargo space.
As for the art-deco cosmetics... Pay no attention... They are just "me"... love 'em or hate 'em, the basic concept could be use with any style scoot.
An important element of the design is the flat-floor, step-through design. The rider couldn't swing a leg OVER the huge rear trunk area, but with a flat-floor, one just steps in, and sits down.
Mechanics would be the same as the bare-bones ride, including a bigger, but still plain-Jane air-cooled GY6 motor with hopefully at least 15hp or better. I'm showing a cooling-fan scoop, as it made a major difference on my old 150, and THIS design would be ridden LOADED-DOWN for sure.
Again, I'd replace the standard scooter front-fork with a REAL fork, having legs running through BOTH triple-trees. The main engineering mods I'm envisioning on any of my concepts for the 150cc GY6 class are a motorcycle front-end, either traditional or springer, depending on the style of scoot, a bigger version of the standard engine, and some common-sense "user" features like large fuel tank, analog gauges, etc.
I'd like to see the boys at the Chinese scooter factories and those at Lifan, and other China motorcycle plants get together, and mate up some real motorcycle front-end parts (forks, lights, gauges, bars, etc.) with the scooters with such "marginal" front-ends.
Even my Kymco 250 uses that same fork design with the little down-tubes fastened ONLY to the bottom triple-tree. NOT a good design in my humble opinion... Running the fork legs through BOTH trees "triangulates" the front end, and brings FAR more stability and rigidity which should vastly improve handling, and reduce front-end wobble so common with scooters.
Nothing here involving "rocket-science" and it all could be produced in China with little "new" tooling or fabrication. Just my ideas... Let's see what else you all can come up with! Who knows, we may see some of the ideas on showroom floors one day!
Ride safe, and keep thinking up new ideas!
Leo (dreamin' up stuff) in Texas
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Post by urbanmadness on Mar 23, 2014 16:03:07 GMT -5
I've always liked your artwork, Leo.
I think Panners on the side would be very useful for hard side bags. Huge and sturdy rack for the back with good bungee hooks
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Post by JerryScript on Mar 23, 2014 20:41:08 GMT -5
urbanmadness, what would you think of extendable panners, that could pull back with the frame when not needed? @leo, I like just about everything about your designs! They are well thought out and aesthetically pleasing, you have obviously been thinking about these for some time. Thanks for posting them! On the 150 seat/storage, I've seen some scooters and motorcycles with the second rider 6-9" higher. Do you think your design could be compromised to provide something like this, just to give the ability to carry a second rider? Limiting it to a single rider while seemingly practical, is a limit I don't think most would want. So what parts of these designs do you think belong in the CSSD (Crowd-Sourced-Scooter-Design)? I think a better side stand is a MUST! I personally would vote for your idea of using a motorcycle front end on any size. I think the increase in safety, stability, and sturdiness would be well worth it. I'm not certain about making the appearance full-on motorcycle on the front end though, perhaps it should still have some form of scooter-esque fairing? Wind protection alone is worth the benefit, not to mention protection from debris, and minor storage. Thanks again for posting your design ideas Leo, some great stuff there! Everyone else, feel free to chime in!
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Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 23, 2014 22:58:21 GMT -5
JerryScript,
Thanks for the compliments! As for what belongs in the crowd-sourced design, well, any that appeal to the "crowd"... LOL! Many will agree with the sturdy side-stand. I think maybe the simple air-cooled GY6 punched out to 200cc too. That would not harm gas-mileage too much, and would make a tremendous difference in performance... Sort of like the slick SYM 200 flat-black "ratster". THAT is one NEW scoot that just about does it for me! Definitely the forward mounted carb (if fuel-injection is too costly) and a FULL-DIAMETER exhaust-header. THAT trick REALLY woke up my old 150.
Obviously, no one cosmetic style will please everyone. All of the mechanical ideas I mention could work on anything from a Ruckus to a touring scooter, and from a 50 to 300cc or bigger. I thought long and hard on the motorcycle front-fork. The virtual "plethora" of Chinese 250 motorcycles use a nice, trim, scooter-size fork whether traditional hydraulic or springer style. The design simply runs the downtubes all the way through BOTH triple-trees. That should not interfere with fairings, or other scooter cosmetics we like. And, it's OH-SO much better!
And while at it, those sharp little 250cc cycles also usually feature American or European-style old-school analog gauges in chromed tin buckets. I like that! Easy-to-read and look great on ANY design! I also like the headlight up on the handlebars, turning with the fork. Works well in VERY dark areas.
Retractable or snap-off panniers are a good idea... Though maybe too pricey to do from the factory. On my "solo" scoot, the design is TALL to maximize storage, but you're right... The trunk COULD conceivably be low enough to allow a high passenger seat on top. My own Kymco "Grandvista" in its Asian/European form of the "Grand Dink" uses just the seat you speak of. The passenger sits WAY up in the air. No reason for it, and Kymco should have used that to provide more storage. My American/Canadian version Grandvista looks just like a GY6 150, seat and all... (except of course for her big, rodent-nose...)... LOL!
All the things I've suggested here are just ordinary and simple things that could be factory-made. I do have ONE major idea I'll need some time to draw up because it will need to be shown sans-body panels. It involves a 3-wheel design, with a proven, reliable and economical electric drive-train. It's practical enough to go into production "ASAP" and features absolutely nothing I could even concept-patent... So, if it would "catch on" it would be my freebie contribution to transportation... LOL!
Let's all get our ideas out there guys and gals... And while we're at it, with the dismal pay Americans get (foreign manufacturers are now farming out work to US for the cheap labor...) why doesn't AMERICA make a scooter? There's enough market today... I'd buy one, so long as it isn't badged "Made in Vespucciland"...
Sharpen up those pencils, and fire up the old scanner!
Leo in Texas
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Post by urbanmadness on Mar 23, 2014 23:35:50 GMT -5
I don't think panners are that big a deal if exposed when not used but that's me. If you could make them "retract" when not used that would be cool but I think it would add to the complexity of the build. I'll take a video of how the hard bags are set up on my aprillia. I have not seen a better arangement and that includes my goldwing. I wouldn't be surprised if BMW uses something similar for there adventure bikes.
As for the Vespucci, why not do something like the cx500/650 silver wing, where you had the option of running a full size seat or a solo seat with a trunk. On the Vespucci, I'd also like to see a windshield, and a large and wide front knee guard, to protect the rider in cooler area's.
I think the nakked could make a great budget bike (I'd just call it the Nakkid), especially if you have options such as hardbags. I'd also like to see a seat more like the Big Ruckus on that thing. Comfy and a backrest... and adjustable.
next... how to cut cost but keep quality up. I think being able to source good controls, either Harley, Honda, Suzuiki, etc... Not the crap that is on these bikes now. Nothing makes one of these bikes feel cheap, like cheap controls. Same with the speedo's etc. Also, on the Nakkid, make it an option to run floor boards instead of pegs. Like the highway floorboards on a goldwing.
Engine: The 150cc air cooled gy6 is a pretty bullet proof, mechanically speaking other then the softer valves and valve seats (frequent valve adjustments). If we could get harder valves, it would probably help with this. Electric fuel pumps and electric fuel petcocks would be another thing I'd really like to see as well. As manifold pressure raises to atmospheric at full throttle, either you loose vacuum to the fuel pump and loose fuel pressure in the case of the fuel pump, or you loose vacuum to the fuel petcock and it closes in the case of gravity fed bikes. The net result is the same, the scooter decides to empty the float bowl and dies, just when you need it the most. Quality fuel lines and vacuum lines go without saying.
Variator and CVT
Gates belt, and a 115mm variator for the 150cc bikes
Electrical,
Universal turn signals, for both bikes so they can be replaced with a simple trip to Cycle gear or ebay, same with the tail lights and the headlights. Quality CDI and Coil. High cap stator and heavy duty Reg/rec. At least two cig lighter jacks.... and an easy place to mount a Phone or Nav unit. Other items on my wish list, enough stator capacity for heated accessories. Real FUSE BLOCK.....
CARB certified...... A must.... Might be easier to take a roudy and retrofit it for the Nakkid althou that is not a flat floored scooter and that's beyond what we are trying to do here.
This is just my wish list..... Most of it would be pretty doable. It probably wouldn't be the cheapest scooter on the road, but I think these items would make it one of the best in the 150 class bikes anyway.
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Post by doublert on Apr 27, 2014 7:03:57 GMT -5
A V-twin!!!!
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Post by Skunk Shampoo on May 1, 2014 14:14:09 GMT -5
oldchopperguy, those are great designs. I could recognize the Ruckus roots of the first one instantly. The Vespucci matches what I'd be looking for when I graduate from my 50cc. All that cargo space. 
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Post by oldchopperguy on May 1, 2014 21:03:49 GMT -5
Skunkshampoo, Many thanks for the compliments! The more I ride, the more I appreciate All the cargo space I can get... And after riding my old Chinese 150 for six years, I would highly recommend that when you do decide to go larger-displacement from your 50cc, you might want to go one step larger than the 150cc class. I found that not all 250cc are large and heavy to handle. AND, scoots like the Kymco People 200 and similar scoots from SYM and other makers feel little larger or heavier than many 50's. But will hold their own in traffic up to well over 60 mph. They also have enough power and stability to handle the VERY large top-boxes or even pull a trailer! Ride safe, and enjoy that 50 until you move up!  Leo in Texas |
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