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Post by rickwagner on Dec 2, 2013 16:02:07 GMT -5
I just bought this scooter from a friend's dad. It's been sitting for about a year from what I understand, possibly longer. I've noticed some problems with it, and would like to know if anybody could help me out. By the way I just joined the forum due to the amazing amount of knowledge I seen just from reading some of the posts about other issues. 1. I can only start the scooter by kick starting. I have put on about 200km on it since I have bought it, riding around the neighborhood, and the 2 days I was able to ride it to work before the belt cover broke around the kick start. I removed the broken belt cover to check for any other broken parts, while I had it off, I checked the starter to make sure it was turning properly(as I had read on this forum that it can turn in reverse if going bad). The bendix turns clockwise, turning the(I will call it a flywheel, not sure if that's what it is) that is connected by the belt to the clutch, to the opposite, counter-clockwise. Now I took the grab gear that the kick start uses to turn this flywheel and it turns in the same direction as it would if it were being kick started. It has a brand new battery, which is hooked up properly, also there is a fuse that is similar to a car fuse that is in good condition in the battery box. I don't notice any electrical problems with the bike. All of the lights and other electrical parts see to be in working order. After starting the bike and running it straight for about 2 hours, I got it home, shut it off, and it button started once, and after that it will not do so again. As long as I have had it, the push button start will not work. 2. Engine will not idle properly. When cranking it up for the first time in the morning the bike will start, but if I do not give it full throttle, sometimes feathering it if the rpms drop too low, it will just die. Once it runs for about 2-4 minutes, the clutch will engage and it will run fine as long as I am giving it any kind of throttle. If I come to a stop, I cannot let off the throttle all the way until it has been run for at least an hour or it will die. If I just cranked her up to go to the store and back, it will not idle at all. Once it has been run for any significant period of time, it will idle for about 5-10 minutes fluctuating from 2k to 1k rpm the whole time. From what I notice, the idle screw is run down all the way to increase the idle. This is a picture I took of it. Sometimes, it's hard to kick start once it has been running for awhile, sometimes it starts right up. When it does not it usually has to sit for about 5 minutes before it will kick start again. ![]()  3. Gas gauge is not working. It seemed to be working properly when I first got it, but now it registers always empty even if I just filled it up. 4. There is a hose coming off the intake manifold(see above picture as it is a good view, also I will attach another below showing a top down view), I would like to know if that should be closed off like it is with a zip tie. And what it might be used for if it was not zip tied  5. Just for knowledge purposes, when I got the scooter the kick start was horizontal, I adjusted it up to about the 2 or 3 o'clock position to make it easier to kick start, a few days later a 2x2 inch pieces of aluminum belt cover surrounding where the kick start connects to the internal gear broke completely off. I checked it for any broke parts, they were all in good condition. Would the change of the kick start up that high cause it to break the belt cover? It is a 3 wheeled scooter with rather large fenders for the rear wheels right where the kick start would be if it were horizontal making it rather tough to kick it without banging into the plastic fender. 6. On the throttle handle there is about a inch of play before the throttle cable starts to move on the carburetor is that normal? Or should it be as soon as I turn the handle the cable should start to pull on the carb arm. |
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Post by alleyoop on Dec 2, 2013 17:50:05 GMT -5
On the Throttle cable only 1/4 of an inch of play. That Vacuum hose you have zip tied that was most likely going to a canister for some emission it had on it that was taken off. Few questions. 1. When you squeeze the brakes do your stoplights come on? 2. When you push the start button does it activate the starter? 3. When you push the start button do you hear CLICKING SOUND? Also Two things come to mind WHY the IDLE SPEED SCREW is all the way in to raise the IDLE. 1. The carbs FUEL RATIO MIXTURE needs to be adjusted 2. The Valves need to be adjusted. FIRST Just the way it is ADJUST the VALVES, Adjust both of them to .003 inchs. Now start the scoot, it may idle high now so you would need to turn the IDLE SPEED screw Counter Clockwise to lower the IDLE. SECOND once it is running now let it idle for about 5 minutes. Then Adjust the Carbs Fuel Ratio Mixture Here is how to adjust your carb: Alleyoop itistheride.boards.net/thread/12/4ts-carb-tuning |
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Post by rickwagner on Dec 3, 2013 15:34:56 GMT -5
Yes, when I hit the brakes the lights do come on. And when I hit the start button it does turn and attempt to start the engine. The only noise I hear when hitting the start button is the engine spinning but not firing up.
When I first bought the scooter, it wouldn't run at all, the guy I bought it off of put the idle screw all the way down.
Now the valve cover gasket is that reusable? If not I did buy a brand new gasket kit with the crank case.
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Post by rickwagner on Dec 3, 2013 15:38:04 GMT -5
Also there does not seem to be any kind of adjustment for the throttle cable on the carburetor, so would this be done at the actual throttle handle?
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Post by JerryScript on Dec 3, 2013 15:48:20 GMT -5
There should be two adjusting nuts at the point the throttle cable attaches to the carb, and an adjusting screw at the point the cable pull attaches to the carb's rotating slide. If you don't have those, then you will have to post pictures of this amazing self adjusting carb!
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Post by alleyoop on Dec 3, 2013 15:57:34 GMT -5
Here you go I labled where you can adjust the throttle cable by the Carb. Alleyoop  |
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Post by rickwagner on Dec 3, 2013 19:40:11 GMT -5
I figured that was the adjustment screw... but mine seems to be run out all the way already. Is post a picture, but my phone doesn't give mute the option to do that
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Post by alleyoop on Dec 3, 2013 20:44:24 GMT -5
The reason the nut facing forward is at the end of its travel is because the IDLE SPEED is all the way in and has rotated the Throttle control wheel to much and the BUTTERLY is to open already.
First thing to do is Turn the IDLE SPEED screw COUNTER CLOCKWISE all the way so it does not touch the Flat part on the Throttle control wheel. Then Loosen the Nut on the bracket pointing backwards and push it forward so the Throttle control wheel rotates as far as it can to close the butterfly all the way. In that position the BUTTERFLY inside is completely closed.
Now check the play on the throttle grip have about 1/4 free play before it actually pulls on the Wheel.
Now turn the IDLE SPEED screw Clockwise until it touches the Flat Part of the Control Wheel and then give it half turn on the screw and start it. You can always lower or raise the IDLE.
Alleyoop
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Post by rickwagner on Dec 8, 2013 16:57:39 GMT -5
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Post by rickwagner on Dec 8, 2013 16:58:08 GMT -5
Ok, update: 1. I got the kick start gear cover back on, however, I notice it does no longer return to its starting position when I try to kick start it. Does the return spring need to be wound slightly so that it has tension on it from the get go? 2. When I put the cover back on and attempted to button start it, unbelievably it started with the button. Ran it for about 5 minutes then parked it, and then tried to button start again, and it would not. However, a buddy of mine across the street had some starting fluid. I sprayed 3 quick sprays into the air intake and boom it started in about 10 to 15 seconds, idled high, then ran fine. Now, it seems spraying some starting fluid is not the ideal way to start the thing, but I must do what I need to do to get this thing to work and back as its my only transportation. 3. After running it(using the starting fluid) I parked it and noticed oil on the top of the kick start gear covering. It seems to be coming from the hose jutting from the air filter housing. What is weird is there is a hose coming from the top front of the valve cover running back to the air filter front hose. So, when the valve cover pushes oil out of this little tube, it goes into the air filter intake hose? This does not seem right to me. Is this normal to have a I suppose oil overflow going straight into the intake? In the picture you can see all the oil on the cover. As well I pulled off the intake and noticed oil sitting on the bottom of the housing, it was milky, but I suppose thats from when I drove to work when it was raining last tuesday.   Now I haven't started to adjust the carb or anything like that yet. I'd like to get this kick start problem fixed before I start messing with the carb. If I have enough time tomorrow I will deal with the carb, as I have to be back to work on Tuesday. Also I need to pick up a set of feeler gauges so I can do the valves on it too. I did order a service manual with the new parts so I will be able to use that to help me set the engine position so I can do that, unless there is a better guide on here that can help me out. -Rick p.s I appreciate all the help allyoop, sorry I didn't say much back for the week was staying at my supervisors house and all I have is my phone to post with, and it tends to be a P.I.T.A to do some things with on the inet. |
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Post by JerryScript on Dec 9, 2013 8:38:18 GMT -5
1- Yes, the kickstarter's return spring should have some wind too it. I cannot turn mine by hand when disassembled, it's a tight spring.
2- The valve adjustment will probably help with your starting issues more than anything else. You should also tear down your carb and clean it really good.
3- That line from the valve cover to your airbox is to vent unburned fuel gases back into the air intake. Some airboxes have a small piece of filter material to soak up any oil that gets vented to there, and these have to be periodically cleaned to prevent clogging up.
FYI- There is a trick that you can use to set your valves without feeler gauges, though I highly recommend checking with a feeler even after using this trick. Loosen the set nut, then turn the tappet till it just touches the valve stem, do not tighten it down, just make it touch. Now back it off by 1/8 turn, and then hold it still while you tighten down the set nut. The 1/8 turn is based on the mathematics of the screw, and should set you between .003-.004 just like you need.
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Post by ramblinman on Dec 9, 2013 9:08:09 GMT -5
2. Engine will not idle properly. When cranking it up for the first time in the morning the bike will start, but if I do not give it full throttle, sometimes feathering it if the rpms drop too low, it will just die. Once it runs for about 2-4 minutes, the clutch will engage and it will run fine as long as I am giving it any kind of throttle. If I come to a stop, I cannot let off the throttle all the way until it has been run for at least an hour or it will die. If I just cranked her up to go to the store and back, it will not idle at all. Once it has been run for any significant period of time, it will idle for about 5-10 minutes fluctuating from 2k to 1k rpm the whole time. From what I notice, the idle screw is run down all the way to increase the idle. This is a picture I took of it. Sometimes, it's hard to kick start once it has been running for awhile, sometimes it starts right up. When it does not it usually has to sit for about 5 minutes before it will kick start again. locate your air/fuel adjustment screw and turn it counter clockwise. should be on the left side, opposite of the throttle linkage. also take the time to clean your carb. i had similar problems as you the past week and was beginning to think i would never figure it out. my carb only has about 3,000 miles on it but sure enough, the jets had some microscopic blockage. yesterday i bought a $2 can of carb cleaner and spent about an hour dismantling it, spraying every part. runs like new now. as for the kick start, you may need to post some pics. |
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Post by rickwagner on Dec 9, 2013 20:17:18 GMT -5
Well, I worked on it some more today. Was quite the learning experience today, as it was nigh on impossible to work on this beast with the plastic in front of the engine on it. I didn't end up taking it off until well into about halfway working on this thing. But I will post everything in sections as I normally do 1. The kick start.....that aggravating part from if I've ever seen one. I put the gear the kick mounts into on the starting position, then put the kick on it itself, and then attempted to spin the spring into a position where I would be using the kick start at, however, I could not get the spring from popping up underneath the gear every time I put tension on it. Sitting here thinking about it, I should have mounted the kick start into the normal factory position and then tried to put tension on it and see what happens. If anybody knows an easy way to get tension on that spring without much of a hassle I would really appreciate it. 2. I adjusted the valves, now I bought some service manuals for this type of engine with the crank case housing, the only issue is the .003 valve feeler gauge. I went to Advanced Auto and the smallest gap I could find was .004. However, the service manual I have says to gap it at .005 each. Now I adjusted this thing to .005, put it all back together, and rode it a little bit. It seems to run fine with .005, but, I can hear the rockers ticking so I'll have to readjust them again this weekend coming up. Me being the redneck that I am looked online for the thickness of plain copy paper, and found that it is .001, now if i fold paper on itself 3 times it should come out to .003, which will give me the thickness that I need to gap this somewhat more properly. It getting dark so early really makes it a pain to work on things without a garage to work in. I may have a friend who's dad might have the right thickness, so I'll find this out sometime during the week and see if I can borrow it. As of now it starts with starting fluid, but I believe the .002 more of a gap than it should have will give me trouble starting it up. But I will try my best to manage for the rest of the week getting to and from work. Hopefully I don't have too many problems with it. 3. Ok, now for the thing I have no clue about. I pulled the seat out, and under the seat was this:  Now there is two hoses coming out of one end and one hose in the other. The side with one hose seems to be going into the side of the fuel tank. One of them on the side with two hoses seem to go into the the hose leading into the plastic pipe connecting the air intake to the carb. And the last one I believe goes into the pipe connecting the carb to the engine. The pipe hose you can see in the upper left hand section of the picture was kinked of with a zip tie, as was the one going into the intake manifold(pipe between the carb and engine). With the scooter running I unkinked the one in the upper left hand side and almost immediately the engine died without any type of drop in idle, it just stopped. So I kinked both hoses back again. Now what is this black box in the center of the picture with these hoses coming out of it? And can I just take it off and leave the hoses kinked? I refuse to let this thing beat me, so I will be adjusting the carb on Friday after I get home from work, that is after I readjust the valves a bit better. I may clean it out, as I changed out the fuel filter, and there was a fair amount of crap in it from the fuel tank. I'm assuming because it sat for so long. What is the best way to take the carb off and clean it? Are there any good guides I can print up and go by? |
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Post by rickwagner on Dec 9, 2013 21:36:55 GMT -5
Also, I have the manuals for the 139qmb engine uploaded to my google docs, if anybody wants access to the just shoot me your email and I will add you so you can view them. I notice that I don't see the .003 gap for the valves in any of them. It seems to be bigger than than that in all the manuals. But, when I gapped them with the .005 today it wouldn't fit, so I will take the advice I get here and reduce it down to .003 this weekend, as the engine rockers make a ticking sound, and I know the engine oil is good so the only thing it could be is that they are not set right at .005. I guess manuals arent all they are cracked up to be. But, the main manual is a good reference to taking apart the whole assembly as far as engine and drive train if you have not done so before.
Also, what should the motor idle at if it is running properly? mine fluctuates at idle so it doesn't have a set rpm it holds. I do know if it drops below 1k, it slowly putters out until it dies all together.
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Post by alleyoop on Dec 9, 2013 22:16:07 GMT -5
If a hose is coming from the Gas Tank that is your EVAP system. It is a VENT for the Gas Tank and to Trap any fumes from the gas tank and send them back into the intake to be reburned. That is a canister which one hose should be coming from one of your INTAKE MANIFOLD vacuum connectors. The Canister needs Vacuum to operate.
You can take the whole thing off:
1. Take the hose coming from the Gas Tank off the CANISTER and put a fuel filter and zip tie it higher than the tank.
2. Take the hose on the AIR TUBING going to the canister and plug up the connector on the AIR TUBING.
3. Plug up the VACUUM line going to the canister at it's ORIGIN.
DONE
If the IDLE is bouncing you either have an AIR LEAK or your carb Fuel Ratio Mixture is to LEAN turn it counter clockwise 1/4 of a turn until the idle settles down. It should idle around 1500 rpms.
Alleyoop
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
