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Post by carasdad on Apr 17, 2013 20:01:04 GMT -5
Today I was thinking.No! Actually this time I was. I was pondering why the Aprilla SR50 is such a fast stock scoot. They are basically the same as our Jog/Minarelli engines. Yet oddly we use 15X12 variator weights....and they use 17X12 variator weights. So I marked my variator with a Sharpie pen and did a WOT run with the KOSO 5gram sliders I have been running in it. Been thinking they were too light and was going to go heavier since my BBK should be able to work well with a heavier weight. I had about 6mm of untouched variator surface. All I had for sliders was a pair of generic 16X13 green color 6 gram ones I got off Ebay pretty cheap. So 10-12 swipes down a Mill File and they were now 16X12 and about 5.5 grams. While only 1mm taller than the typical Jog/Minarelli 15X12 sliders...due to their elliptical shape..at the end of travel when sliding them by hand in my variator...they appeared to increase travel by more than just that 1mm. Marked my variator with a Sharpie and installed them. I ran it with the CVT cover off first in case there was a problem and I would end up pushing the scoot home. A few good revs and all that was left of the Sharpie mark.... was a tiny dot! The belt edge was riding almost flush with the edge of the CVT. So then I thought again(2 thoughts in one day..unreal for me huh?) It came to me that when I install Hoca performance variators for folks Jog/Minarelli...they use the 16X13mm weights...1mm taller than our stock 2T weights...so possibly why folks notice a speed improvement? My KOSO variator only uses the 15X12 weights..but has longer channels as it is larger in diameter and has a steeper ramp at the end. Again I mark the CVT..put the cover on and go for a ride. Same Rocket like take off it always had...same brief acceleration pause it had at 30mph where the rpms drop and the scoot shifts(stock rear sliding sheave) From there it continued to climb to 50 steadily..which is about its top speed. But it hit 50 and was still climbing! My speedo stops at 50..that is as high as it is marked. No clue how fast I was going as I did not think to bring the GPS. But it was a fingers width or so into the white!  I could definitely feel more speed as well. Also the road I was on is a 55mph zone and I was catching the truck in front of me. Of course I have no clue if he was going 55....all I know is that I was really moving. So now maybe I understand why the 2T Hoca variator uses 16X13 weights...and the Aprilla use 17X12...vice 15X12 like our standard Jog/Minarelli....CVT.  |
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Post by alleyoop on Apr 17, 2013 20:15:28 GMT -5
Yep, onc size taller weights if you can find them will give you a kick in the pants as they say.
That will push the Variator out more and push the belt up higher on the Variator, results more top end speed.
Alleyoop
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Post by carasdad on Apr 17, 2013 21:06:27 GMT -5
Yep, onc size taller weights if you can find them will give you a kick in the pants as they say. That will push the Variator out more and push the belt up higher on the Variator, results more top end speed. Alleyoop Yes sir indeed! Just as I found out...that 1mm difference makes more of a difference than you think it would. As I mentioned before...hence Hoca using 16X13 on a 2T engine and Aprilla using 17X12. That 1mm or 2mm in the case of Aprilla... is not totally linear in its travel down the variator channel....for the most part it is until it reaches the performance variators steeper angle at the end of travel. Not sure how well it would work with round roller weights as the elliptical shape of the sliders causes a higher lift at the end of their travel. But I am going to try a set.....just to see. Now I just need to get a performance rear sliding sheave...cause that slight pause at about 30 mph...where the scoot 'shifts' the rpm's are right up there in the power band...until it hits that spot and they drop..so the engine is out of the power band until it accelerates back into it...at about 35. Then 35-50 is quite fast as well. |
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Post by alleyoop on Apr 17, 2013 21:10:23 GMT -5
You can take a hair off the inner curve on the sheave so it does not hang up so much. They usually have a little point on the inside of the curve which is the hang up point file that point down and save some a good amount of bucks. Also put a little greae on the pins and on the slots.  Alleyoop |
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Post by carasdad on Apr 17, 2013 21:33:32 GMT -5
You can take a hair off the inner curve on the sheave so it does not hang up so much. They usually have a little point on the inside of the curve which is the hang up point file that point down and save some a good amount of bucks. Also put a little greae on the pins and on the slots. Alleyoop Yes..it does have a little point in the slot. Thought about slightly reshaping that..but was not sure if it would work. Only makes sense that it would as I have worked on a few super high mileage scoots where that 'hump' had worn down when I took the sheave apart to clean and grease it...and noticed they did not have that annoying 'shift' point in the power band. |
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Post by alleyoop on Apr 17, 2013 21:44:54 GMT -5
Here is the EXPENSIVE NCY PERFORMANCE SHEAVE notice no point or humpty dumpty Alleyoop  |
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Post by skuttadawg on Apr 17, 2013 22:19:01 GMT -5
I think Brent has a thread where he used a variator that used larger sized weights with good results . I have 8gram Dr Pulley sliders , 1.5k clutch springs and a Hocac bbtorque base . I could not get the 1.5k torque spring to fit with the bb base so I put on the stock one since I can do 40 up a steep hill already . It came with 6 grams , I tried 4 anmd it was too light and 5 was ok but would barely hit 50 when it was 49cc as with 6 it would most of the time and few times beyond . When I put on a BBK and MMG after testing jets 5 grams was too light as I could go uphill ( with a running start ) and still hit 9k RPMs . Where I live is near mountains and the area is called " The Foothills " with enormous hills in areas like " The Redneck Autobahn " . Take off was less with the MMG pipe as its an open pipe with no restrictions or as much back pressure as stock pipe but mid and top end was another world since it has hit 11k mostly 10,500 where the 49cc would hit 8k and fizzle at 8.5k and stall at 9+ downhill . A buddies Elite takes off fast like a forklift but drops at 20 or 25 MPH where mine with the new setup comes alive at 25 MPH and again between 45 and 50 ( according to the speedo ) . I did not want a wheelie popper or redlight to redlight racer but instead more top end with less RPMs as when it is screaming it Pac Mans the gas and only has a 4 liter tank . I have the large  variator with 21mm nut instead of 18 mm After ready Teddys thread where his belt shred got me noid as mine has over 4,000 ( speedo cable was broke for 150 miles ) even though it had almost no signs of wear like fibers showing or missing teeth I bought a Bando belt that day . My Gates was a 788 xxx and could not find a matching number from an American vendor . Thanks to Aleeyoop ( ^5 high 5 ) I have a 788 17 28 Bando and I could tell instantly that the old belt was strecthed some and is a spare one now . I still may test heavier sliders as its 7,500 at 50 MPH but screams between 10,500 and 11,000 RPMs and goes beyond the 50 MPH mark as that is as far as the speedo is marked . I am looking at a KOSO LED dash from www.scootertuning.ca since I prefer LED over LCD with my bad eyes plus its blue like my scooters . Will have to fab a way to mount if the plugs match as I would love to just be able to plug it up rather than crimp on new plugs since the wires are just enough length instead of having extra to play with . My Spree would blow it away out of the hole as I hit 35 MPH up a very steep hill from a standstill with 2 smaller passengers when I was 18 and 60lbs lighter . The prevous owner had a " daddy warbucks "who had a engine installed . I got lucky he wrecked it by hitting a fence so the forks were bent and front tire busted . He got a AWD Eagle Talon turbo and had no interest in the scooter anymore . I stole it for 100 bucks and pushed it home . His dad raised cane saying how he spent over 300 in upgrades back in 1989 . I smoked a buddy who had a 4T Honda with 8x BBK with me having a pileon and him alone . We grew up together riding minibikes , mopeds and MX motorcycles . The Spree had a stock or like a stock pipe and was not loud , but the MMG can make my ears rings . I am saving up for another pipe like a Stage 6 replica for 168 as I like the LeoVince HM70 pipe but dang 300 dollars  ? After having 2 soft seizes , one fatal on the 49cc and another that I was able to get a few hundred more miles before the wristpin came out and ate up the piston crown and head , I will be going back to the airbox . With a Uni it gets too much air and can not ride in the rain . Even with it in a carport and covered in a heavy storm I have to drain water out of the bowl sometimes which is a bummer and hassle . My Spree I only put on new forks and tire , replaced the NGK with an iridium . I only put in gas and oil and never once had to wrench it . I used the kickstart twice just to see if it worked . I was so happy with my Spree and quickly learned my old TaoTao was far from being a Honda . The Spree had 10s I think but mad power to the wheels as offroad I could easily fishtale . I can feel the 130/60/13s do have way more drag so less power to the rear wheel , but the ride comfort , handling and short stopping distance with F&R discs is well worth the trade off to me . I guess 12s may be ideal for a 2T . I hated how my TaoTao had 10s which was like stunt riding at top speed . My Magnum is so stable with streetable offroad tires that are not balanced I can go several hundred feet of handless riding without any stress when going 40 or less . I do love how strong wind and uneven roads surfaces do not affect me like on my Echarm which can get skeery at times . I hope to have a Stage 6 screamer with EFI by end of summer as my outside it just starting to take off . I do various oddjobs instead of having a normal job . I learned long ago paid by the hour sucks compared to by the job |
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Post by carasdad on Apr 18, 2013 10:32:33 GMT -5
I think Brent has a thread where he used a variator that used larger sized weights with good results . I have 8gram Dr Pulley sliders , 1.5k clutch springs and a Hocac bbtorque base . I could not get the 1.5k torque spring to fit with the bb base so I put on the stock one since I can do 40 up a steep hill already . It came with 6 grams , I tried 4 anmd it was too light and 5 was ok but would barely hit 50 when it was 49cc as with 6 it would most of the time and few times beyond . When I put on a BBK and MMG after testing jets 5 grams was too light as I could go uphill ( with a running start ) and still hit 9k RPMs . Where I live is near mountains and the area is called " The Foothills " with enormous hills in areas like " The Redneck Autobahn " . Take off was less with the MMG pipe as its an open pipe with no restrictions or as much back pressure as stock pipe but mid and top end was another world since it has hit 11k mostly 10,500 where the 49cc would hit 8k and fizzle at 8.5k and stall at 9+ downhill . A buddies Elite takes off fast like a forklift but drops at 20 or 25 MPH where mine with the new setup comes alive at 25 MPH and again between 45 and 50 ( according to the speedo ) . I did not want a wheelie popper or redlight to redlight racer but instead more top end with less RPMs as when it is screaming it Pac Mans the gas and only has a 4 liter tank . I have the large variator with 21mm nut instead of 18 mm After ready Teddys thread where his belt shred got me noid as mine has over 4,000 ( speedo cable was broke for 150 miles ) even though it had almost no signs of wear like fibers showing or missing teeth I bought a Bando belt that day . My Gates was a 788 xxx and could not find a matching number from an American vendor . Thanks to Aleeyoop ( ^5 high 5 ) I have a 788 17 28 Bando and I could tell instantly that the old belt was strecthed some and is a spare one now . I still may test heavier sliders as its 7,500 at 50 MPH but screams between 10,500 and 11,000 RPMs and goes beyond the 50 MPH mark as that is as far as the speedo is marked . I am looking at a KOSO LED dash from www.scootertuning.ca since I prefer LED over LCD with my bad eyes plus its blue like my scooters . Will have to fab a way to mount if the plugs match as I would love to just be able to plug it up rather than crimp on new plugs since the wires are just enough length instead of having extra to play with . My Spree would blow it away out of the hole as I hit 35 MPH up a very steep hill from a standstill with 2 smaller passengers when I was 18 and 60lbs lighter . The prevous owner had a " daddy warbucks "who had a engine installed . I got lucky he wrecked it by hitting a fence so the forks were bent and front tire busted . He got a AWD Eagle Talon turbo and had no interest in the scooter anymore . I stole it for 100 bucks and pushed it home . His dad raised cane saying how he spent over 300 in upgrades back in 1989 . I smoked a buddy who had a 4T Honda with 8x BBK with me having a pileon and him alone . We grew up together riding minibikes , mopeds and MX motorcycles . The Spree had a stock or like a stock pipe and was not loud , but the MMG can make my ears rings . I am saving up for another pipe like a Stage 6 replica for 168 as I like the LeoVince HM70 pipe but dang 300 dollars ? After having 2 soft seizes , one fatal on the 49cc and another that I was able to get a few hundred more miles before the wristpin came out and ate up the piston crown and head , I will be going back to the airbox . With a Uni it gets too much air and can not ride in the rain . Even with it in a carport and covered in a heavy storm I have to drain water out of the bowl sometimes which is a bummer and hassle . My Spree I only put on new forks and tire , replaced the NGK with an iridium . I only put in gas and oil and never once had to wrench it . I used the kickstart twice just to see if it worked . I was so happy with my Spree and quickly learned my old TaoTao was far from being a Honda . The Spree had 10s I think but mad power to the wheels as offroad I could easily fishtale . I can feel the 130/60/13s do have way more drag so less power to the rear wheel , but the ride comfort , handling and short stopping distance with F&R discs is well worth the trade off to me . I guess 12s may be ideal for a 2T . I hated how my TaoTao had 10s which was like stunt riding at top speed . My Magnum is so stable with streetable offroad tires that are not balanced I can go several hundred feet of handless riding without any stress when going 40 or less . I do love how strong wind and uneven roads surfaces do not affect me like on my Echarm which can get skeery at times . I hope to have a Stage 6 screamer with EFI by end of summer as my outside it just starting to take off . I do various oddjobs instead of having a normal job . I learned long ago paid by the hour sucks compared to by the job Kevin...file down some 16X13 sliders to 16X15 and try them..amazing difference in only that 1mm..which actually becomes more at end of CVT travel. My rpms were lower..not right at 10,000 as before....and my top speed was up. Acceleration also did not change..still a Rocket off the line. Just that annoying 'shift' at 30 mph..where rpms drop..it falls out of the power band...and ya gotta wait for it to kick in again...then you are off like a bolt of lightning. Gonna mod a spare Torque Driver sheave as alleyoop mentioned...that should get rid of that 'P!sses me off shift point delay'... |
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Post by carasdad on Apr 18, 2013 20:24:37 GMT -5
hmm..no comments...nobody gonna try it? You will surprised at what you have been missing..  |
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Post by alleyoop on Apr 18, 2013 20:42:45 GMT -5
The thing is to find one size TALLER rollers, the width you want the same size due to the width of the ramps. It really is a no brainer, I finally found 19x14 12gram rollers only from the UK they are being shipped as we speak. My Variator takes 18x14. So what I will do is mark my Variator and run it with 12gram 18x14 rollers take a picture of the mark left. Then I will put in the 19x14 rollers and remark the Variator and take a picture. I will post the results when that happens, how does that grab you But when I do get them I will measure them to make sure THEY REALLY are 19x14 and not 18x14. Also I will weigh the rollers to see if what they really weigh. I will post the results when that happens, how does that grab you Mind you it will not happen that soon since it is not riding weather around here(HAHA). Alleyoop |
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Post by hank on Apr 18, 2013 21:12:36 GMT -5
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Post by carasdad on Apr 18, 2013 21:22:15 GMT -5
The thing is to find one size TALLER rollers, the width you want the same size due to the width of the ramps. It really is a no brainer, I finally found 19x14 12gram rollers only from the UK they are being shipped as we speak. My Variator takes 18x14. So what I will do is mark my Variator and run it with 12gram 18x14 rollers take a picture of the mark left. Then I will put in the 19x14 rollers and remark the Variator and take a picture. I will post the results when that happens, how does that grab you But when I do get them I will measure them to make sure THEY REALLY are 19x14 and not 18x14. Also I will weigh the rollers to see if what they really weigh. I will post the results when that happens, how does that grab you Mind you it will not happen that soon since it is not riding weather around here(HAHA). Alleyoop I hope yours is like mine...did not think 1mm would be anything..but as I said with the sliders they are more than 1mm at the end of travel due to the elliptical shape is my best guess. I was not able to find 16X12...looked everywhere. So I used 16X13 and 10-12 hard swipes across it...they were 12mm. Hope your weather gets better cause I can't wait to hear your results. @ Hank..yes..true..you cannot beat that Ditech engine...they built to the hilt..yes sir. ;D |
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
variator with 21mm nut instead of 18 mm