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Post by volatilepulse on Oct 29, 2015 2:19:45 GMT -5
So, I've been doing a bunch of research to see what needs to be done. I have learned a lot about the different components in the charging and ignition system and I just want to make sure I'm on point with it all.
First, the stator and flywheel are only used to generate power. It's always AC current. Different number of poles allow for a large power output and have different phases, 1, 2, or 3, depending on the set up. The different phases are for what part of the AC power curve it generates. Single phase is one curve. Dual or two phase is two curves, 180 degrees from each other. When one is positive, the other is negative and when one is zero, both are zero. Three phase is the curves 120 degrees from each other, at least one wire is always positive. None of that matters much except for the rec/reg. The flywheel spins and uses the magnets inside of it to charge the coils and generate the power. The other purpose is to trigger the pickup coil with the magnet on the outer edge of the flywheel. This is effectively the timing for the spark plug.
The CDI is no different between models (minus some limiters and some other internal wirings). A DC and AC CDI basically work under the same concept. They both require a ground, a signal from the pickup coil, and an output source. The sole differences I've seen is that a DC CDI gets it's power supply directly from the battery and must be started using a 12v power source (your battery can't be dead). An AC CDI requires power directly from the stator and requires the use of a kill switch. The kill switch basically shorts out the CDI allowing the engine to be shut off. The AC CDI allows the scooter to be kick started and doesn't require a battery to be present at all.
The regulator and rectifier is used to convert (rectify) the AC current to DC current and feed it back to the battery. The voltage regulator ensures there are no abnormal spikes in voltage. It is also how you charge your battery. Depending on the number of phases your stator has, the more power the rectifier can put out. My thought process on this is that the rectifier basically takes the top part of the AC power curve(the positive voltage) and converts that to DC power. A single phase rectifier will allow only half of the power to be converted (maybe minus some low points on the positive side as well). A two phase rectifier will allow both of the top halves to be converted, effectively losing minimal power. And a three phase rectifier, which I believe is similar to alternators in cars, is putting out DC power the entire time the scooter is running. This allows for the largest power supply.
The ignition coil and spark plug operate regardless of AC or DC power supplies as I believe they're only fed by the CDI, maybe a 12VDC source too, but I haven't looked far enough into that. Either way, it shouldn't need upgraded unless a performance upgrade is required.
The electric choke is similar to the above and shouldn't need altered based on modifying the charging system. Anything other components I missed?
After doing this research, my goal has focused more around converting my electrical system to solely using DC power. If I were to solely use LED lights, would a six pole, single phase stator provide enough DC current to power all lights AND recharge the battery? Or would I need to upgrade to at least a two phase stator to achieve this? My headlight is roughly 22W and is very bright. I don't have the tools to bench test the power output of the rectifier, but I would assume it's at least 5A, hopefully, 10A+. I also believe that my scooter has a solid state flasher as one of the lights went out and didn't suffer from an increase in flashing speed. That would save me from having to add resistors.
I like the thought of keeping my AC CDI as I haven't seen enough evidence that a DC is more beneficial. That leaves the stator and rectifier. I don't see the point in upgrading either without the other. I also believe the simple rewiring of the electrical system starts near the stator. I believe there is a wire that breaks off to the front and the rear that supplies power to the lights. This wire can be severed, fed to a relay along with a 12V power and ground and a wire reconnected to supply power with a DC current source. Is this correct?
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Post by volatilepulse on Oct 26, 2015 21:42:41 GMT -5
Just got back from my weekend away yesterday and I left my key in the ignition in the on position, oops. I took it out last night thinking nothing of it. This morning I was getting ready for work and went to start the scooter. The electric choke (?) was making sounds with the start button, but no engine cranking. Oh no. It took me a bit to realize I had a kick start as I only used it once. Kicked it to start it a few times and fired up.
I continued my trip to work, thankfully leaving early enough to deal with that issue and went to start the scooter again to test the charge. It fired right up. Great success!
9 hours later, I came out to start the scooter again, no crank. My first thought is I killed the battery from being able to hold a charge now and I'll be stuck kick starting it from now on. No big deal. After 15 minutes of trying to kick start it, it finally turned over and kept going (that part has me worried as well). Since it was late, the first thing I noticed was the dim dash lights and no more low beam. My high beam continues to work, but no low beam. The lights would gradually dim out while running as well until the scooter warmed up.
I recently replaced the severely underpowered 9004 bulb the previous owner installed with a very bright and well powered LED bulb. This is the first time I noticed the bulb was very dim. I could barely see it reflecting on surfaces, let alone on the ground. And go figure, the day all of this happens is the day I forgot my bag of tools at home so I couldn't unhook the battery to see if that assisted the charging system at all.
I'm really starting to hate this whole AC electrical system and I'd love to attempt a DC conversion on it. This winter would be a great opportunity to do that if this is even feasible. I love electrical work on cars and feel this would be easy enough to do, given enough time that is, and I should have 4 months or so to work on this.
My question is though, aside from removing the battery temporary, is there anything else I can do to test the rest of the electrical system? There is a bunch of bugs in it as far as I can tell, but I haven't really read more than to test battery voltage during standby, idle, and under throttle. Also, what all would I need for the AC->DC conversion? I read an 11-pole stator isn't a bad choice, probably a new CDI for the DC system, new rectifier, and probably a large spool of wire. Anything else I'm missing? Anything specific I need to look for when it comes to each piece? And good guides? The money isn't necessarily an issue, but I don't want to buy 10 different stators to find the one I need and don't want to buy the most expensive things I can find if something else is just as good but cheaper, I avoid eBay like the plague when it comes to any electrical stuff. I'm sure this is going to get me in deep over my head, but thankfully, i won't need the scooter anymore, but I've enjoyed it and tinkering with it so I think this would be a great DIY and a chance to learn, and maybe teach someone else, how everything works.
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Post by volatilepulse on Oct 23, 2015 20:35:10 GMT -5
I can't help but wonder why the scooter still has some trouble starting up. It used to start as soon as I hit the ignition button, now it takes about 2 seconds to fire up and tries to bog out until it's warned up. Any suggestions in that area? Anyways, I appreciate everyone's help and advice. Have you set the valves? Number one cause of hard starts is valve lash being off. I have not. Is this something that can be done with the engine still in the scooter? Do you have a link to a walk through? I did notice my engine was running fairly rich so I leaned it out a bit and it's a tad easier to start now, but still bogs out a bit before warming up. I need to get a video uploaded of it starting cold so you can hear what's going on. If the valves aren't adjusted immediately, will it cause any damage? I doubt I'll have a chance for at least a week but it still needs rode to work in that time. |
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Post by volatilepulse on Oct 23, 2015 13:08:53 GMT -5
As promised, here is the write up. Any comments or suggestions? Changing the Gear Oil in Your 50cc Scooter Things you'll need Gear Oil - I used SuperTech 75W-  Synthetic Blend Gear Oil from Walmart 10mm Wrench - Mine have been lost or stolen over the years so I used a ratchet Syringe or something similar to fill the gear box - I use the FloTool MixMizer Oil Pan - I just used a cut up bottle Used Oil Container - Apple Juice anyone? Towels - You're bound to make a mess Gloves - If you like to stay clean Drain Plug Washers - Only if needed  I did this on my 2008 Wildfire WFH50-S2 139QMB scooter. It only has about 1350km or 850mi. It was easy enough that anyone who could turn a wrench can do. First, start off by locating the two plugs you'll need. One is the fill plug, the other is the drain plug. The drain plug is located on the bottom of the gear box (noted by my gloved finger)  And the fill plug is located to the right side, in the bottom right corner of the belt cover  Both of these plugs were 10mm on my scooter and we a bit tight. Make sure your scooter is up on the rear kick stand before starting. This not only makes it much easier to work with right bolts, but also allows you to get the right amount of oil into the gear box. I ran my scooter to the gas station and back to warm it up, but it's up to you. Start by breaking loose the fill hole plug. Mine was a bit tight and the scooter shifted when I broke mine loose. Make sure you have your oil pan ready in case any fluid comes out. I had a small stream come out when I removed the plug.  If your plug falls into the oil pan like mine did, you'll have to fish it out. Make sure you grab the plug AND the washer. Let the fill hole drain until it's to a slow drip and grab your wrench again. The drain plug is straight up and down and makes it hard to have your oil pan ready while trying to break the plug loose. I broke the plug loose with my ratchet and put my oil pan back under. I unthreaded the plug the rest of the way with my fingers.  My plug fell into the oil again as well. Make sure you fish out both the plug AND the washer again. I fished both of my plugs out and cleaned them off. The drain plug, in the top right, had a bit of dirt and debris on it. Check your washers at this point to make sure they're not damaged.  It may take a little while for the gear oil to drain, especially if you didn't warm it up prior to starting. I took the time to open my bottle of gear oil up and loaded up my syringe. My manual says the gear box takes 3.5oz so I filled the syringe to the 2oz line. If your left your tube on there like I did, make sure the plunger stops at 2oz. It will still only suck up 2oz of oil.  By this point, my oil was drained minus a drop or two. I wiped off the excess oil and reattached my plug (don't forget the washer), making sure it was tight. Do not over tighten the plug or you risk crushing the washer and can cause a leak down the round. I went to stick my syringe in the fill hole and realized that my tube was slightly larger than the hole. This was no good. I took the cap off of the top of the gear oil bottle (the little white thing), and cut the very end of it off.  This fit perfectly in the fill hole and I was able to push the oil in as fast as I wanted.  Once the syringe is mostly empty, minus some in the tube, go back and fill it up again. I filled it back up to 2oz since I missed a little with my first 2oz, but you should only need 1.5oz. Once you're loaded up, go fill the rest of the gear oil. Make sure you put your oil pan back under where you're working. I had some extra run out, most likely due to using 4oz instead of 3.5oz. If some gear oil runs back out, you're fine. It's just like any other gear box, you fill it until it comes out. Let it drain the excess until it's barely dripping. Wipe up the wet spots and put the plug back in (don't forget the washer). Make sure you make it tight. Double check your work and that both plugs are tight. Make sure that you have no left over parts, like washers. Pour your old gear oil into your used oil container and recycle at you favorite local shop. Clean up should be pretty easy if you used some paper towels or rags to catch the oil drips. Thanks to the advice of the people that have helped. My owners manual said to originally use 5W-50 Engine Oil for the gear box but didn't sound right. The general consensus was to use actual gear oil. |
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Post by volatilepulse on Oct 23, 2015 12:04:21 GMT -5
Thanks Jerry. So I got most of my maintenance done these last three days. A complete list is a new oil change with Valvoline 20W-50 Full Synthetic Motorcylce Oil, a new spark plug using an NGK CR7HSA, cleaned and oiled my foam air filter with the K&N Recharge Kit, changed my gear oil with SuperTech 75W- Synthetic Blend Gear Oil, tightened up my throttle cable so there is minimal play, tuned the carburetor, and took it on a healthy run. I'm working on a write up for when I did the gear oil, even though I'm sure there are plenty on the forum. I have yet to pull my plug back out and check it for a lean or rich condition, but that is on my todo list before I leave for the weekend. I also used the K&N oil prior to knowing there is dedicated foam air filter oil, but I figure it will be better than a completely dry filter. My run showed it didn't harm anything, but I'm trying to get my hands on some No Toil foam filter oil. I can't help but wonder why the scooter still has some trouble starting up. It used to start as soon as I hit the ignition button, now it takes about 2 seconds to fire up and tries to bog out until it's warned up. Any suggestions in that area? Anyways, I appreciate everyone's help and advice. |
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Post by volatilepulse on Oct 22, 2015 10:15:25 GMT -5
The air filter is a dark grey/black foam. Kind of like a sponge. I'm just not quite sure what kind of oil to use for it. The owners manual is no help and I needed something within driving distance. I have a bunch of auto parts stores near me and some large retail stores.
I'm more concerned at this moment with that airline. In the picture above, it's the line that comes from the air cleaner inlet and runs to the valve cover. The service manual states it's a breather for the crankcase and doesn't show it attached to anything but also doesn't show the air cleaner. The air line is perfect length to reach where it was previously connected. I also noticed a vacuum port on the air cleaner box AFTER the air cleaner that was plugged off and thought it might be better in there. Is anyone able to verify on their 139QMB where the line from the valve cover goes? My car had the same kind of vacuum line running from the intake to the valve cover so it would make sense.
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Post by volatilepulse on Oct 21, 2015 22:22:47 GMT -5
Alright, I ended up getting the plug replaced and the oil changed. I accidentally put a little too much oil in there but I just took the excess oil, had about 2 ounces too much. I haven't had a chance to run it since I replaced the plug but I will run it WOT and check it. Any advice on how long and can I just leave it on the rear kick stand and run it that way? I noticed my old plug was black and on one side of it, it was slightly lighter than the other, I'm assuming that side was pointed towards the intake valve. Anyways, here's a picture.  I stopped by by my local walmart and picked up FloTool's MixMizer from the automotive department. It's a 2oz syringe with a 4" clear plastic tube designed for 2stroke oil/gas mixing. Worked great for removing the excess oil and will need the other one to do my gear fluid. Any recommendations on weight for that? I also decided to check my air filter and while it was surprisingly clean, my best friend said it should be sticky from the oil and I should clean it. He advised buying dirt bike/ATV air cleaner oil on line. Is there anything in a local store I could use, like the K&N air filter cleaner kits? When checking my air filter, I noticed a vacuum line coming off of it that wasn't attached to anything. I wasn't sure where it went, so I stuck it on the only nipple I could find. You can see it in the picture. Is that the right connection? The scooter seems to have more of an issue idling now before it warms up but otherwise seems to run ok.  I plan on getting the air filter and gear oil done within the next two days along with tuning the carb since I did work and adjusting the throttle cable since there is A LOT of play in the throttle. Is there anything else I can do while I have the spare time? I thought about checking the valves, but I don't have time to wait for new gaskets as I only have about 48 hours to work on this and can't exactly remove the engine if that needs to be done. If I can adjust the valves with the engine still in the scooter, I'll attempt that too. Thanks for all of your help so far guys. |
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Post by volatilepulse on Oct 21, 2015 13:52:29 GMT -5
Definitely appreciate the advice. Motor oil definitely didn't sound right for the final drive, but my owners manual insists on it. Any specific weight gear oil I should use? Does it need to be full synthetic? I am leaning towards 80w- conventional or 75W- full synthetic. Also, .8 liters is what I've been hearing is the oil capacity of these engines, sound about right? As for the plug, unfortunately, mine is located right above the frame rail and is pointing towards one of the rear plastic pieces. I have a feeling it's going to be a major PITA to get out with removing that panel and these aren't exactly designed with ease of use in mind. I'll debate the WOT run depending on if I can get it in and out without having to remove that panel. One last thing, my scooter squeaks with every bump and squeaks when I mildly apply brakes. The brakes are acceptable and will be taken care of down the round, however, I was wondering if there was a way to silence the suspension, even if only temporarily. I'll have pictures up tomorrow since I got a late start to the day and have a bunch of chores to get done yet (hopefully the last mowing of the year). |
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Post by volatilepulse on Oct 21, 2015 1:52:00 GMT -5
Hey guys, fairly new to the forum and owning a scooter. I picked up my Wildfire WFH50-S2 about a month ago and have tuned the carburetor already. I plan to do some regular maintenance in the next day or two but need some assistance.
I've already received my CR7HSA spark plug and my manual recommends to gap at .035 but the 139QMB service manual recommends .024 I believe. Which should I use?
My manual also recommends using 5W-50, 10W-50, or 15W-50 full synthetic oil for both the engine AND final drive. I picked up a bottle of Valvoline 20W-50 Full Synthetic Motorcycle oil but I read on the manual I should be using gear oil in the final drive and 5W-30 for the engine. I'm confused now.
I also need to retune the carb since cold weather is here and I plan on riding it as much as possible through the winter. Any suggestions or what else I should do? Scooter has either 800 or 1300 miles on it (figuring out odometer in the next few days as well).
Thanks for your help in advance.
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Post by volatilepulse on Oct 20, 2015 19:42:47 GMT -5
Hey guys, just joined the forums looking for some help on this seemingly odd scooter. I picked it up about a month ago for $400 with what I was told to have 1100 miles on it (more on that in a bit). I've been reading some posts here and there has been a wealth of knowledge that has helped me this far, but looking for some more advice.
I got this off some guy I believe to have been a drunk off of craigslist and didn't take care of it. I'm now the third owner and somewhere down the line, most of the scooter has taken apart, plastic clips are broken, screws missing, and the rear left plastic is barely held on (one screw and a zip tie). The carburetor was also replaced and poorly tuned so I don't know the complete history of the thing.
One of the most frustrating things I've ran into, aside from numerous missing screw and screws in the wrong location, is that one of the owners couldn't stand the factory bulb, which I believe was a BA20D, and instead replaced it with a 9004 car headlight bulb. It was held in by nothing more than some electrical tape. They didn't reattach the headlight housing to the front headlight cover. They used spare wire and, surprisingly, crimped some female spade connectors to plug into the back of the headlight. This was the last thing that impressed me. The factory pigtail and bulb socket was removed and in it's place, the wires coming from the bulb were just shoved into the pigtail and fastened with electrical tape. The housing was only held in place by the adjustment screw at the bottom and the mess of wires behind the housing.
I purchased an LED headlight kit, wires and all, from an amazon seller and replaced the mess the previous owner had created. The headlight housing is partially melted above from the old headlight, and also has a dark spot in the front. The new LED bulb is much brighter, requires much less power (20W as opposed to 55w) than the 9004 bulb, but is having a flickering issue due to the AC system.
I have also purchased a new CR7HSA plug to replace the factory one and a quart of Valvoline 20W-50 Synthetic Motorcycle Oil. My manual states to use 5W-50 oil in both the engine and final drive but I've been reading that we are to use gear oil for the rear, and 5W-30 in the engine, but my manual states otherwise. What is right? Also, what body style does my scooter fall under? The closest I've found is a Sunny, but it varies a lot from that one too.
As for the 1100 miles on the scooter when I bought it, while I can't completely rule out tampering of the odometer, I noticed that my trip to work registered as 7-8 miles. I thought maybe the tire pressure was low, which it was, but the return trip measured the same. I just read a post that stated that while my speedometer is in MPH/KMPH, there is a good chance my odometer is measured in KM. That would mean horribly low miles on a scooter that's 8 years old.
Sorry for the long winded introductory, but I have my hands full with this thing. By the way, I'm from Pennsylvania and will be posting pictures tomorrow, it's already late in the evening here. I also purchased this as my primary vehicle since we only live 4 miles from my job and I plan on riding through the winter.
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Synthetic Blend Gear Oil from Walmart