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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 20, 2015 14:47:58 GMT -5
Interesting
Thought I got it from Gy6Racing ... but maybe not. Have 2 on the way from him now, so will report back in a few days when they arrive.
About the clutch:
Don't think there is a bearing problem - everything spins by hand quite freely.
But not sure about the clutch simply because i don't know what "normal" is. On the OEM clutch I have it is damned near impossible to squeeze apart the pulley halves by hand. The outer pulley flexes a little, but not much opening. With channel locks it's still hard but can be opened. In operation the outer pulley moves in and out, seemingly smoothly, as wheel speed goes up/down (on the center stand). But I'm a bit afraid to actually ride the scooter now b/c the other belt popped so suddenly (and I don't yet have a backup). Is what I describe NORMAL for clutch stiffness?
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 20, 2015 1:45:13 GMT -5
Keep an eye on your CVT ! A broken belt , "especially if it is a gates with low miles " indicates a CVT issue . you have been having some unusual happenings with your CVT. With the need for very light variator weights , and a broken belt , this may be a bearing or clutch issue. Can u take a pic of the belt where the writing is ? I'd like to see if it matches up with a true gates belt. I had a belt snap before , but it was a cheap fake Kevlar that the guy I bought the scoot from gave me . it snapped in about 300 miles , and was in pieces.  . I lost some of it on the road since my CVT is opened up. Here ya go. Pic of the last piece I have:  Wish you would pay your internet bill! Need more of you right now on this problem!!!!!  About the clutch. Of course, I have no idea what main spring is in there - have not yet mucked around with a clutch on these. But if I try to pry apart the pulley halves it's almost impossible. With channel locks they separate - and I (for the first time, actually) watched the clutch this morning as I rev'ed the engine and the pulleys DO separate. Seems smooth, though I have no idea if it's taking too much force. As I said - just squeezing the clutch with my hands does not really separate the pulleys at all. Wheel spins freely; the clutch turns easily and without apparent binding. Have a pair of Powerlinks coming from Puerto Rico (he didn't have any Kevlar belts of this size). Carrying the electric torque wrench under the seat till this is better understood ... though it would not do much good at the moment since the only belt I have is the used Bando (OEM) thats currently installed. Your photo looks even worse! But my belt was fine 12 hours earlier .... Nervous. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 19, 2015 21:00:46 GMT -5
Hey Scoot! Your comments are GREAT! I think this is where we are getting different results:  The actual belt travel is ALONG THE SLANT, not on the flat (radial) distance). Also - on the 3 variators i checked the very inner part, next to the boss where the 'inner dead zone" is ----- this is a small FLAT cut portion of the face, NOT cut on the slant. The diagram above shows this. I note the earlier diagram i posted shows this incorrectly. THAT is why I was suggesting doing the trig to get the distance you would measure with calipers - as your correctly suggest - translated into an imaginary extension of the sloped face so that all the measurements are taken on the same plane. The OUTER dead zone does not havet his problem since the slant is cut all the way to the very edge of the variator, INCLUDING the outer dead zone. You didn't respond about writing up a "Variator Tuning Tutorial". No interest? I think it would be invaluable to a ton of people. btw: I completely agree the actual cut of the ramps on the backside of the variator is key to performance. The only problem (for me, and why I didn't include this) is because the ramps ARE compound cuts. VERY complicated to describe or analyze or compare. So, all I did was a kind of "overview" - length and inner depth (which is an approximation for the "in-out" travel of the rollers, and thus the travel of the guide plate and thus the travel of the variator itself from full "inward" to full "outward"). ROUGH approximation, I know - but the best I could think of w/o going totally bonkers. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 19, 2015 16:21:02 GMT -5
Might have run it backwards.
Took it off once maybe .... usually do NOT do so just to mess around with the variator; let it dangle from the clutch. But "might" have once - can't recall for sure.
Was actually wondering if the clutch opened too far & the belt went down between the pulley halves - and that's how the strands ended up stuck down there. But the clutch pulley looked OK this morning when I pulled it apart (except, of course, for the strands stuck down there.
Wanted to get a kevlar belt but my Puerto Rico supplier didn't have any for the 150. So, got 2 more Powerlink belts. Maybe get a Kevlar one somewhere else also ....
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 19, 2015 16:17:38 GMT -5
The only time I ever had a belt break on me was because of a clutch problem. With the clutch still on the scooter I tried to squeeze it open and it was very difficult to do that was my first clue that i had a clutch problem besides the belt breaking. if it is a clutch gone bad and you put a new belt on there it wont last long. also what kind of belt are you using and what is with the discoloration on the broken belt it looks black/white Only kept one piece of the popped belt, but it does NOT show the "white" that's in the photo so I presume it's just the lighting. Gates Powerlink The clutch IS too stiff to compress by hand - needed channellocks to do so and get the strands out from between the pulley halves. And .... have a 2K main spring supposedly on the way, so it will soon be stiffer. IF I put it in --- just found out on my motorcycle, after putting a new water pump, thermostat and radiator in, I have a head gasket to also replace (which means getting that head rebuilt also). Running out of motivation for projects .......... |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 19, 2015 11:54:34 GMT -5
GEH and i were talking clutches and he asked about how the belt was riding in the clutch. So, it just so happened that I took a few pix of the belt yesterday morning:   (that one was with el cheapo installed (note the large "dead zone"), before putting the Dr pulley back on). So last night, returning home from church. Admittedly riding the poor thing hard - faster than it has gone before and really running like a little banshee .... then, all of a sudden "pop" and no power. Engine rev'ed but ... nothing. Knew immediately the belt had popped. Pushed the scooter the last mile or two (getting O L D !), then took a look first thing this morning. Powerlink was pretty new. But what a mess !  With strands stuck down in the clutch and variator:   This is my first belt pop, so I'm not sure what to make of it. Fortunately kept the old bando, so back running again till a new belt comes in. But is it normal that the shredded strands would be so twined down into the clutch? Should I think maybe I have a clutch problem going on? Or is this just par for the scooter course? |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 19, 2015 9:47:57 GMT -5
Scoot! This is actually becomming an interesting conversation!
1. The original intent was to characterize the HARDWARE since geh found that there are so many counterfiets out there, even among good retailers, it's become hard to know what we are getting. That is a DIFFERENT subject from how an individual properly TUNES the hardware he has bought.
2. Measuring the "inner distance", etc., are a little complicated.
Inner distance: the very inner few mm of the variator are flat, not sloped. The "innder dead zone" is mostly here. Then there is the long part of the face that is slanted (but, to my surprize, a constant angle - the cut of the face is NOT a compound, curved cut - simply flat at an angle --- try a straight edge to check). Then, finally, the outer dead zone - which is part of the same sloped face at the same angle
To measure the inner dead zone you need to first put a boss in and measure from it's edge. The hole in the middle of the variator isn't the same, as the bushing inside is not flush with the hole in the variator. You then have to triangulate a little because that measurement is on the flat, not on the same plane as the long, belt-riding angled surface. THEN you have the actual distance from the boss, on an angle, to the outer edge of the inner dead zone. ON THE ANGLE OF THE CUT FACE, not on the flat. Then from there out, on the same angle, you can measure the usable distance and the outer dead zone. These all added up will not equal the measured diameter of the variator since THAT is taken "on the flat" - the SLOPED distance is longer.
3. Performance, like you say, includes a bunch of other things like shims (and other variator set up issues), the clutch, gearing, rider weight, etc. That's a GREAT topic for a second writeup. The only one IU could find here was one from Alley that was really not all that bad - pretty good - but far from enough, not covering half of what you just mentioned. Maybe consider tackling that topic?
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 18, 2015 23:29:16 GMT -5
Dr Pulley and el cheapo - identical overall height and slope  All 3 drive faces:  Outer drive plates:  All 3 glide plates:  But all have identical angles:  |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 18, 2015 23:20:03 GMT -5
Moving on to the OUTER DRIVE FACEI have two - one from the OEM setup and the other from the Dr Pulley kit. Here are the two side by side:  Much larger cooling fins on the OEM face. However, this comes at the expense of weight: OEM ...................... 170 grams Dr Pulley ............... 142 grams Here is a photo of the faces of the two:  Notice TWO important differences: 1. The Dr Pulley face allows the belt to ride much closer to the hub. The OEM face has a 'flat section" milled onto the face - 7.9 mm of unusable area right next to the hub. The Dr Pulley design has it's curved, usable surface milled much closer to the hub. The belt is thus allowed to work on a smaller diameter, giving better low end performance. 2. The Dr. Pulley face has a 1mm "lip" causing it to stand off that much further from the inner drive face. This ALSO causes the belt to run lower in between the faces. However, the same could be accomplished with a washer with the OEM design. It isn't known if the dr Pulley variatior ramp design somehow makes up for this extra 1 mm separation at HIGH speeds. The thickness of the faces - from the point where they touch the inner drive face, on one side (INCLUDING the lip) to where the nut contacts the face on the other side, are identical: OEM ................... 8.7 mm Dr Pulley ............ 8.7 mm Rcq, ignore my post about what all you weighed. I have 4 koso variators now and I just noticed there are 3 different styles ! The first one I ever bought weighs 264grams the second one weighs 274grams the third weighs 291grams and my new one weighs 291grams. Soooo , I'm sure koso isn't making all of these variators and just making mistakes . I never measured the weight on the second one I bought , I just thought it was the same as the third and fourth one . this tells a lot , and that is that there are a number of fakes . So, geh - the thought I had with this is that maybe all of us together can, over time, pull together enough data that we can take care of ourselves and make sure we get what we want and need. That's pretty difficult at this point. Best one can do is buy from a trusted source - mine are the same as yours (Gy6Racing and John) - but even then we are dependent on someone else looking out for us when we should look out for ourself. That's why I suggested to JerryScript this morning the possibility of starting a table in the "data" section of this blog - a place where we can start listing all the variators any of us have and their measurements. Might take a while but if every so often someone else would add another line for their new variator I think is due course we would have the best library of variator data in existence. Maybe that's a dumb idea - so I'm asking for your opinion. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 18, 2015 18:49:02 GMT -5
Good comments. This was to be a comparison of the different variators out there, to help some day in selecting new ones ... which are good, which not so good, and why. There are lots of writeups about how to TUNE the thing after you have already bought one, but only anecdotal comments on which is "best". I hoped this would become a sort of library - with people adding lines as they measure their own variators. Then we all could buy smart. About tuning: Though there are lots of write ups about tuning, I have not found any that are very good. Maybe the authors skip too much, or maybe they actually don't understand all that well what they are doing. It occurs to me YOU could write a GREAT step-by-step everyone could understand and follow to get the most out of their engine. It would be a really good long-term way of 'giving back'. Maybe think about it? Very good info rcq. When you measured the variator weight , what all did you weigh? Did you only weigh the variator or the whole assembly together ? Weight of each piece was separate. Didn't think of weighing the bosses. But I seriously doubt weight is relevant to anything. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 18, 2015 16:07:33 GMT -5
Good comments.
This was to be a comparison of the different variators out there, to help some day in selecting new ones ... which are good, which not so good, and why. There are lots of writeups about how to TUNE the thing after you have already bought one, but only anecdotal comments on which is "best".
I hoped this would become a sort of library - with people adding lines as they measure their own variators. Then we all could buy smart.
About tuning:
Though there are lots of write ups about tuning, I have not found any that are very good. Maybe the authors skip too much, or maybe they actually don't understand all that well what they are doing. It occurs to me YOU could write a GREAT step-by-step everyone could understand and follow to get the most out of their engine. It would be a really good long-term way of 'giving back'. Maybe think about it?
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 18, 2015 12:58:53 GMT -5
The outer deadzone is determined by the balance of weights and springs, you can get more out of it with the appropriate tuning. The inner deadzone is determined by the boss, you can mod it a bit, but I never had, so I'll let others talk to that. The ramp angle is an important measurement, it affects the timing of RPM changes as much as balancing weights and belts will. Yeah - thats why I tested them all out under the same conditions - for a fair comparison. All the same weights, etc. Same boss. Face angle was identical on all three. Ramp angle obviously was not, since they were different depths at the start and different lengths. Jerry - I thought it would be helpful to start a "list" that all who are interested could post to. In time we could jointly build a pretty decent library of variator specs so we all could know what we are really getting. If you have been following GEH's comments about the last 3 "Koso" variators he has purchased, and how they are not the same, this (I think) would be a good benefit to all - one that (to my knowledge) does not exist anywhere. but the part I can't figure out is this: You would want a real LIST, not a series of 50 or 100 separate comments. Someone measures up their variator and wants to add it to the list, they log on and add another line to what's already there. But how could you set up something that EVERYONE could add to. Normally you can only "edit" your own comments. What do you think? Does that sound useful? If so, is there a way to do it? |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 17, 2015 22:08:52 GMT -5
This is getting done, geh, thanks to you and your interest in comparing variators. I have not seen - anywhere - anyone actually take a good look at what we are using. It seems the only 'variatopr analysis' is a subjective one: "I think this XYZ brand gives me better top speed", or "better acceleration", etc. Anyway - I'll get into the rest of what I found tomorrow, what you said about the "wider variator" isn't true with these three. All exactly the same. More info tomorrow on this. Have weights, dimensions, etc. - all for you since you are so detail oriented! Did you see how I measured the center of the 2 Koso's ? From front to back , where the boss goes. Are you saying they are all the same ? When it comes to width , that's what I'm talking about . you may have understood me , I'm just trying to get a good picture of all of these variators. SOME VERY INTERESTING MEASUREMENTS, I THINK. Here is a diagram so we are all talking about the same things:  So here are the comparisons ................................................... OEM....................... Dr. Pulley ............... el Cheapo1. Overall sizes E: Diameter .......................... 107.4mm ................. 114.7mm .............. 115.2mm H: Thickness ......................... 35.7mm .................. 35.6mm .............. 35.7mm D: Boss diameter ................. 24mm .......................24mm ................ 24mm The thickness of all three is the same. 2. Belt Travel DistanceOne of the most important things is the overall distance on the face of the variator over which the belt can travel. Of course this is influenced by the overall size of the variator (107mm or 115mm). But it's also changed by the two 'dead zones' - one at the center of the variator (belt cannot drop lower than this) and one at the edge of the variator (belt cannot rise higher than this). Here are the interesting results: ................................................... OEM...................... Dr. Pulley ............... el CheapoC: Inner Dead Zone .................. 4.14mm ................. 3.76mm .................. 4.57mm A: Outer Dead Zone .................. 3.96mm ................. 3.56mm .................. 5.94mm Thus, the USABLE BELT TRAVEL DISTANCE IS (each side): B: ...........................................35.13mm ................39.54mm ............... 36.77mm
The USABLE belt distance of the 115mm el Cheapo is only slightly better than the smaller, 107mm OEM variator !!!!!!!! 3. RAMP SIZEThe depth of the ramps (at the hub) are not all the same, and the "length" of the ramp (distance from hub to outer extremity of the ramp are also not the same. The depth depends on how thin the variator is at the hub. The lengthdepends on how thin the VERTICAL EDGE is on at the outer edge of the ramp. A deeper ramp (at the hub) allows for more dramatic movement of the sliders/rollers. The length of the ramp does the same. So here are the measurements: ................................................... OEM....................... Dr. Pulley ............... el CheapoG: Ramp Depth (at hub) ........... 30.2mm .................. 29.37mm ................ 28.58mm I: Ramp length (hub to edge) .... 26.99mm ................. 31.57mm ................ 29.27mm The OEM has a nice, deep cut ramp - but of course it's short (since the thing is only 107mm diameter). el Cheapo is both cut not as deep and is not as long (because the side wall of the variator is thicker). It's a loser on BOTH counts. 4. VARIATOR WEIGHTSupposedly a lighter variator is better because it takes less power to s;pin it up (like a lighter flywheel). I have my doubts this is really anything you could even measure. Pulling an ounce out of the variator - will do what? Anyway, here are the measurements, thanks to tghe scale at the local Postal Annex: ................................................... OEM....................... Dr. Pulley ............... el CheapoWeight (grams) .......................... 300gr ...................... 283gr ...................... 275grOn the basis of weight, el Cheapo does well, despite being thicker at the ramp start and at the side wall. Maybe a lighter alloy? Maybe a lighter sheave inside the hub? Anyway, my belief is it does not much matter. +++++++++++++++++ Anyway, there is the detailed comparison. Thanks, geh, for the motivation to look into this. It's odd we all have been flying blind about variators for so long. So, this is a start. Maybe others can add to the library so we can know what is really good or bad. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 17, 2015 9:35:37 GMT -5
Moving on to the OUTER DRIVE FACEI have two - one from the OEM setup and the other from the Dr Pulley kit. Here are the two side by side: Much larger cooling fins on the OEM face. However, this comes at the expense of weight: OEM ...................... 170 grams Dr Pulley ............... 142 grams Here is a photo of the faces of the two: Notice TWO important differences: 1. The Dr Pulley face allows the belt to ride much closer to the hub. The OEM face has a 'flat section" milled onto the face - 7.9 mm of unusable area right next to the hub. The Dr Pulley design has it's curved, usable surface milled much closer to the hub. The belt is thus allowed to work on a smaller diameter, giving better low end performance. 2. The Dr. Pulley face has a 1mm "lip" causing it to stand off that much further from the inner drive face. This ALSO causes the belt to run lower in between the faces. However, the same could be accomplished with a washer with the OEM design. It isn't known if the dr Pulley variatior ramp design somehow makes up for this extra 1 mm separation at HIGH speeds. The thickness of the faces - from the point where they touch the inner drive face, on one side (INCLUDING the lip) to where the nut contacts the face on the other side, are identical: OEM ................... 8.7 mm Dr Pulley ............ 8.7 mm |
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Post by rcq92130 on Mar 16, 2015 21:38:38 GMT -5
That's the first time I saw a different length boss. The boss on the el cheapo is probably longest due to the wider variator "just like the koso " . At least the el cheapo gives you the longer boss ! I'd do some tests with the different back plates, and see if you get any higher climb out of one of them . This is getting done, geh, thanks to you and your interest in comparing variators. I have not seen - anywhere - anyone actually take a good look at what we are using. It seems the only 'variatopr analysis' is a subjective one: "I think this XYZ brand gives me better top speed", or "better acceleration", etc. Anyway - I'll get into the rest of what I found tomorrow, what you said about the "wider variator" isn't true with these three. All exactly the same. More info tomorrow on this. Have weights, dimensions, etc. - all for you since you are so detail oriented! |
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