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Post by w650 on Jan 6, 2017 14:53:40 GMT -5
I'd like to think you could say they're doing the work. If you dig through the forums from 2008 when I started playing with a Chinese scooter you would see the difference. Carbs clogged from decaying fuel lines, tire valves blowing out of rims at a moments notice, vacuum lines falling off because they dried out and endless complaints about electrical issues. Not to mention cheap meal breaking in the strangest ways. The complaints here now are tame by comparison. Also keep in mind that there are thousands of people out there riding China scoots that don't do forums. Bintelli posted a picture on Facebook of a customer who owns a 50cc model with 21,000 miles. All of them done in a year. I'm guessing there are numerous high mileage Chinese scooters out there we don't know about.  |
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Post by cyborg55 on Jan 6, 2017 15:05:36 GMT -5
Oh the Chinese are making huge strides,, in general,,, they had to,, but not near a Taiwanese scoot,, they are getting closer by the year to year model runs,,, and the tai bikes are far and away double the price,, the Chinese will get there it is no doubt
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Post by onewheeldrive on Jan 6, 2017 22:52:47 GMT -5
Lol, I'm certain that if gas hits $4-5 per gallon again, the forum will be flooded with the same day-to-day issues we saw all the time back then. Maybe not as many though if things really are getting better.
IMO, this summer was the slowest here in the forum I've ever seen it with troubleshooting threads-- especially with new active members. Most posts all year were the 2-word games, scrabble, and "story-time" between members-- the same members. Summer was dead here besides that-- anyone else feel that way? I guess that's a good thing for the people that do own scoots.
You guys think we'll ever see scoots made here in the U.S.?
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Post by cyborg55 on Jan 6, 2017 23:39:09 GMT -5
Yes there's a couple small volume builders already here in the states,,,and there will be more as well when fuels go to and stay above $5-6 per,,,,,,,,I'm an admin on 3 forums and it was very slow,,,I think the quality build issue is taking hold ,finally thank goodness ,,,I think quite a few new members got a pre08 scoot free or for low cost and got slammed with poor performance and reliability and were not mechanically inclined so they ran for the hills,,,another trend I saw also was they sold the "bad" scoot and got a real nice one and were basically never heard from again,,,or stepped into full size motorcycles
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Post by rockynv on Jan 7, 2017 0:23:43 GMT -5
I had one of the 2007/2008 Znen bikes and since I was putting 1,000 miles per month on it the maintenance and constant failures were a nightmare and I am a former heavy manufacturing plant/tool/truck mechanic, head of maintenance and custom wood working machine designer/builder who does all his own repair work. The monthly valve adjustments and oil changes every two weeks were getting to be too much so the other constant failures from poor metals and design issues were the clincher so the bike had to go. Being who I am I had to fix the bike right before I traded it in but still couldn't trust it as my daily ride to get me to work. It had a new head, Hoca drive components, rebuilt gear box, etc, etc, etc when I traded it in.
The Aprilia/Piaggio bikes are my gold standard today as the engineering and metallurgy meet with my personal design philosophy plus I see so many of these bikes that when well maintained are handed down to the next generation with over 100,000 miles on them.
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Post by cyborg55 on Jan 7, 2017 12:10:23 GMT -5
In my opinion is the same as you rocky,, and also my belief of probably  % or more of the problems associated with pre2010 Chinese scooters,,, poor machining and also very low quality metals,, bolts like butter , bad castings ,, ect ,, I even saw that crap on a new Harley sportster I built,, geez what a drag |
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Post by spandi on Jan 7, 2017 15:36:49 GMT -5
In my opinion is the same as you rocky,, and also my belief of probably % or more of the problems associated with pre2010 Chinese scooters,,, poor machining and also very low quality metals,, bolts like butter , bad castings ,, ect ,, I even saw that crap on a new Harley sportster I built,, geez what a drag Yep, I've been warning folks for years to stay clear of anything pre-2010. Gas prices were very high at the time and manufacturers were turning them out like cookies. Let's see what happens with Chinese makers now that many urban areas have banned motorcycles and scooters (and put a dent in domestic sales) while the better made Indian product is Challenging the Chinese worldwide. |
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Post by w650 on Jan 9, 2017 7:38:03 GMT -5
All very interesting but here are the facts. The scooter market right now is selling 65% of their product in the 50cc size range. The Chinese are pretty much controlling that market. The people who buy those scooters don't care that it says Aprilia, Piaggio, Honda, Vespa or Yamaha on the flanks. What they care about is that they can walk into a small shop and pick one up for a Grand as opposed to two grand or more. As we have seen, most new scooter owners aren't enthusiasts. They're frustrated giant SUV owners who are trying to escape big gas bills at the pump. Name means little to most.
The sales of MIC members in the scooter division has been in a nose dive since 2008. Vespa shops close daily, Piaggio sized scooters peak at the BV 350, which is a 330cc, and the Japanese come and go with larger sized scooters. Honda builds the Metropolitan in China so it can keep the price around Two Grand. Yamaha has entered into an agreement to co-manufacture scooters with Honda. There hasn't been a new model introduced in years among any of the big names.
I won't say much more than this. In the 1960s the Japanese came here and created a huge motorcycle market. Since 1946 the scooter market here has been small with smoky, cranky scooters from Europe holding sway for decades and remember that Piaggio abandoned the market from 1980 to 2000 altogether. The Chinese are taking the small scooter market by a storm and putting people on scooter saddles. Calling them junk or cheap Chinese crap is going to have the same effect as Harley owners calling our bikes "Rice Burners". None. Bang for the buck always holds importance for the American buyer and if those 50cc scooters only last three years that will satisfy millions of buyers. Most will probably sell them before the first tire change anyway.
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Post by rockynv on Jan 10, 2017 5:18:02 GMT -5
For a daily ride rain or shine and a long term investment its a Piaggio that you can hand down to your grandchildren but to test the waters short term at low cost yes its Chinese. Many of the Chinese bikes are sold in short time after purchase because the owners get tired of them quickly however you more often see Piaggio riders hanging on to them for many years or trading up. The BV350 according to those that ride them is more powerful than most 500cc bikes and smoother too being less of a thumper due to its box stroke.
When I tested out the waters to see if I could ride again despite my injuries I purchased a Chinese bike because the low initial cost had the potential to keep my financial risk low. Unfortunately the costs of riding it 1,000 miles per month were greater than the cost of going with a Piaggio. When I look at how few miles I put on the Lance/Znen Vintage compared to the costs for all the repairs despite doing most of the work myself the Piaggio bikes start looking much more economical over the long run.
Business Guru John Maxwells Law of the Price Tag still holds true that sooner or later you are going to have to pay and the sooner you get it over with the less its going to cost you in the long run. If you end up trashing your bikes every year or so regardless of the quality then yes go with the cheapest you can get however if you are one that keeps vehicles for 10, 20 or more years like me then you are usually better off paying the extra up front for something better.
Each person has to judge their own needs/situation and thankfully there is something out there for every one.
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Post by spandi on Jan 10, 2017 15:14:47 GMT -5
All very interesting but here are the facts. The scooter market right now is selling 65% of their product in the 50cc size range. The Chinese are pretty much controlling that market. The people who buy those scooters don't care that it says Aprilia, Piaggio, Honda, Vespa or Yamaha on the flanks. What they care about is that they can walk into a small shop and pick one up for a Grand as opposed to two grand or more. As we have seen, most new scooter owners aren't enthusiasts. They're frustrated giant SUV owners who are trying to escape big gas bills at the pump. Name means little to most. The sales of MIC members in the scooter division has been in a nose dive since 2008. Vespa shops close daily, Piaggio sized scooters peak at the BV 350, which is a 330cc, and the Japanese come and go with larger sized scooters. Honda builds the Metropolitan in China so it can keep the price around Two Grand. Yamaha has entered into an agreement to co-manufacture scooters with Honda. There hasn't been a new model introduced in years among any of the big names. I won't say much more than this. In the 1960s the Japanese came here and created a huge motorcycle market. Since 1946 the scooter market here has been small with smoky, cranky scooters from Europe holding sway for decades and remember that Piaggio abandoned the market from 1980 to 2000 altogether. The Chinese are taking the small scooter market by a storm and putting people on scooter saddles. Calling them junk or cheap Chinese crap is going to have the same effect as Harley owners calling our bikes "Rice Burners". None. Bang for the buck always holds importance for the American buyer and if those 50cc scooters only last three years that will satisfy millions of buyers. Most will probably sell them before the first tire change anyway. This reminds one of the German/Russian philosophical design differences during the second world war. The Germans built their tanks with Swiss watch like precision. The Russians on the other hand, (having made a Study that found a active combat vehicle had a life expectancy of about three weeks) turned them out crudely finished but serviceable, and in overwhelming numbers. Since as you say most will be sold before the tires need replacing, superb quality in a scoot is unnecessary. |
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Post by w650 on Jan 10, 2017 20:12:41 GMT -5
The Germans built their tanks with Swiss watch like precision. The Russians on the other hand, (having made a Study that found a active combat vehicle had a life expectancy of about three weeks) turned them out crudely finished but serviceable, and in overwhelming numbers. Since as you say most will be sold before the tires need replacing, superb quality in a scoot is unnecessary.
The 49cc QMB is a crude, simple motor with an incredible service life. While most Chinese versions lack sophistication in suspension and many other features they will do the job for short distance work in Urban and Tourist centers. It's simply the reason why the other manufacturers are on the ropes against them.
Many of the Chinese bikes are sold in short time after purchase because the owners get tired of them quickly however you more often see Piaggio riders hanging on to them for many years or trading up.
The Chinese scooter owners are buying them as starter bikes. That short time is how long they need to decide, in many cases, to buy a motorcycle. Piaggio owners are usually devoted to the idea of a scooter so they, along with purchasers of other large scooters, (Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, BMW) buy what they perceive as the best brand for extended use.
Horses for courses.
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% or more of the problems associated with pre2010 Chinese scooters,,, poor machining and also very low quality metals,, bolts like butter , bad castings ,, ect ,, I even saw that crap on a new Harley sportster I built,, geez what a drag