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Post by JerryScript on Feb 12, 2015 2:17:30 GMT -5
I was watching a few videos about various self-balancing motorcycles in development. It occurred to me that most scooter designs have a perfect location for a balancing gyroscope like those used in some of these self-balancing designs, the floor board area. Not all have usable space in the down there, some have gas tanks or radiator assemblies, but I believe enough do have the room. My 50cc has the battery and CDI down there, but that could easily be relocated, my 150cc has nothing but usable space down there.
The idea is you have a roughly 40lb gyroscope spinning to constantly stabilize the scooter, attached to the frame with a bolt on adjustable spring suspension (flat spring, not coils). A perfect setup would have linkage attached to the steering column that would tilt the attaching structure to allow for leaning in turns without fighting the gyroscope's power, counter steering probably wont work exactly the same regardless. The gyroscope itself would need to be housed in something like a carbon-fiber shell to protect the rider in case of catastrophic failure, but hey we are already riding with an engine capable of exploding underneath us as is, so I don't think safety is beyond simple engineering here.
It's pretty amazing what a 40lb gyroscope can do, here's a video of one of the self-balancing motorcycle prototypes using one (has two, but one is a backup), jump ahead to the 2 minute mark to see one staying upright with the wheels being pulled out from under it by a SUV:
Here's a video of one of the self-balancing prototypes being driven by a driver with no motorcycle training, and later showing one being driven through a slalom course showing it does lean in cornering:
This isn't high tech, I think it might actually be doable! What do you think?
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Post by ramblinman on Feb 12, 2015 4:40:30 GMT -5
we already have two gyro stabilizers on every scooter that is in motion and the bigger the wheels the more stable. it's cool but unnecessary if you can put your feet down when stopped imo. i lol at the 1:15 mark in the second video. the bike staying on it's wheels in that situation would be the least of my worries. i still want one though, it's definitely cool.  edit: after giving it some more thought, you may have a really good idea just for the added safety at low speeds alone. i bet it would keep you upright if you locked up the wheels. if so then it would be a really good safety feature on wet roads. probably would have saved me from my knee injury. could be the way of the future... |
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Post by JerryScript on Feb 12, 2015 11:11:25 GMT -5
One of the things that motivates me here is my sister' height. She doesn't ride scooters because of her height. She has searched but not found a scooter with a thin enough floor board to allow her to have both feet on the ground when standing in front of the seat, so she cannot even do a speed hop to start without feeling like she is wrestling the ride. If she had a gyroscopic system in place good enough to depend on to keep the bike upright at stops, she would be enjoying the ride too!
Crazy secondary possibility, using the stored energy in the gyroscope to generate electricity to top off the battery after shut down.
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Post by bandito2 on Feb 12, 2015 20:12:33 GMT -5
Those gyros are in gimbaled cages. That is to say that the gryo can freely rotate while in turns and going up and down grades for example, but will lock the cages at low speeds and stops. Keeping it upright will take input from a device very similar to an artificial horizon on aircraft. And the cages can be driven continuously around (probably) to torque the gyro in order to bring the bike upright and keep it there, at least until it reaches a certain speed when moving . Notice how it wobbles slightly..... at a stop it is always adjusting a little bit to keep upright. I'm pretty sure there is a "spooling up time" for the gyros before it is ready to take off. Still that would be pretty neat to have on a scooter. (even if the scoot was gas powered) The gyro and controlling equipment is electric.
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Post by JerryScript on Feb 12, 2015 20:46:32 GMT -5
I was thinking planar springs with a simple horizontal wedge driven assembly with connecting rods mounted forward of the front axle. This would tilt the assembly the opposite direction the wheel is turned, forcing the lean with the gyro's power. The planar springs would allow for wobble compensation. Not as high tech as these models, but I'm trying to keep it lower tech, less to fail.
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Post by scooter on Feb 12, 2015 22:06:06 GMT -5
I was thinking planar springs with a simple horizontal wedge driven assembly with connecting rods mounted forward of the front axle. This would tilt the assembly the opposite direction the wheel is turned, forcing the lean with the gyro's power. The planar springs would allow for wobble compensation. Not as high tech as these models, but I'm trying to keep it lower tech, less to fail. Is gyroscopic precession going to be a problem with that setup? |
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Post by JerryScript on Feb 12, 2015 23:56:56 GMT -5
I was thinking planar springs with a simple horizontal wedge driven assembly with connecting rods mounted forward of the front axle. This would tilt the assembly the opposite direction the wheel is turned, forcing the lean with the gyro's power. The planar springs would allow for wobble compensation. Not as high tech as these models, but I'm trying to keep it lower tech, less to fail. Is gyroscopic precession going to be a problem with that setup? I'm hoping the planar springs will smooth the transition out. What's needed is linkage that can use torque induced precession to mimic counter steering. |
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Post by scooter on Feb 13, 2015 16:43:03 GMT -5
Is gyroscopic precession going to be a problem with that setup? I'm hoping the planar springs will smooth the transition out. What's needed is linkage that can use torque induced precession to mimic counter steering. Bandito mentioned the need for being able to turn the entire gyro around its axle. Wouldn't that be necessary? Just a gyro in a flat plane wouldn't give you what you need would it? Can you show us a drawing of what you have in mind? I have arduino stuff that might be able to control the system but if you have a glitch it could be catastrophic. Maybe do like the Segways and have dual controllers for backup. |
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Post by JerryScript on Feb 13, 2015 16:53:25 GMT -5
I'll put a mock up together with sketchup when I have some time. I agree, pictures in this case are worth a thousand posts!
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Post by ramblinman on Feb 13, 2015 18:19:52 GMT -5
i'm not an engineer so i don't completely understand how you make it work either. seems like the hard part is figuring out how to get it to shift when you want to turn so you aren't fighting it through every turn. then the next thing i have a hard time understanding is if you can get it to shift when you lean into a turn... how do you get it to shift the other direction if you are falling over. seems like it might think you leaning into a turn, no?
lol, i have no idea how you make it work but plenty of people smarter than me. would love to see a drawing and read how you would make it work.
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Post by bandito2 on Feb 14, 2015 18:08:46 GMT -5
i'm not an engineer so i don't completely understand how you make it work either. seems like the hard part is figuring out how to get it to shift when you want to turn so you aren't fighting it through every turn. then the next thing i have a hard time understanding is if you can get it to shift when you lean into a turn... how do you get it to shift the other direction if you are falling over. seems like it might think you leaning into a turn, no? lol, i have no idea how you make it work but plenty of people smarter than me. would love to see a drawing and read how you would make it work. The bike is not solidly fixed to the gyro cages so that the bike will not fight the gyro torque when leaning into turns or when the bike gets tilted forward or backward as when going up or down an incline. Without the gyro cages locked, the bike could tip all the way over. But bikes won't do that normally in a turn unless they have leaned too far. And the cages are not locked until the bike slows down to a certain speed. If the bike happens to get that slow and somehow still be leaned, it is likely that the system will drive the locked cages around in an attempt to torque the bike up and set it vertical. The gyro system is meant to keep the bike upright when going slow or stopped since you can't put feet down to stabilize the bike. It is not a magic machine to keep you from tipping all the way over when moving above a certain speed. And it may or may not have enough gyro energy and torque to set the bike up with a rider in it with it lying all the way over on its side. But it does seem to have enough to keep it from going all the way over when it gets its wheels jerked sideways...... so maybe it might be able to do that. It really doesn't take a whole lot to keep the bike balanced once it is pretty close to already being upright. |
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Post by nulldevice on Mar 30, 2015 14:13:08 GMT -5
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Post by scooter on Mar 30, 2015 21:38:46 GMT -5
i'm not an engineer so i don't completely understand how you make it work either. seems like the hard part is figuring out how to get it to shift when you want to turn so you aren't fighting it through every turn. then the next thing i have a hard time understanding is if you can get it to shift when you lean into a turn... how do you get it to shift the other direction if you are falling over. seems like it might think you leaning into a turn, no? lol, i have no idea how you make it work but plenty of people smarter than me. would love to see a drawing and read how you would make it work. The bike is not solidly fixed to the gyro cages so that the bike will not fight the gyro torque when leaning into turns or when the bike gets tilted forward or backward as when going up or down an incline. Without the gyro cages locked, the bike could tip all the way over. But bikes won't do that normally in a turn unless they have leaned too far. And the cages are not locked until the bike slows down to a certain speed. If the bike happens to get that slow and somehow still be leaned, it is likely that the system will drive the locked cages around in an attempt to torque the bike up and set it vertical. The gyro system is meant to keep the bike upright when going slow or stopped since you can't put feet down to stabilize the bike. It is not a magic machine to keep you from tipping all the way over when moving above a certain speed. And it may or may not have enough gyro energy and torque to set the bike up with a rider in it with it lying all the way over on its side. But it does seem to have enough to keep it from going all the way over when it gets its wheels jerked sideways...... so maybe it might be able to do that. It really doesn't take a whole lot to keep the bike balanced once it is pretty close to already being upright. Imagine the crazy slow turns you could do on a bike like that!  |
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Post by upfartoolate on Apr 9, 2015 11:12:19 GMT -5
I was imagining if it glitched while you were leaned over in a turn, and it attempted to *keep* you leaned over... imagine having to ride home heeled over at a 45 degree angle. You'd definitely get people staring. Especially at the stop lights. LOL
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