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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 8, 2014 12:25:34 GMT -5
OK, guyz n' galz...
Having now spent months and WAY too many hours of fruitless experimentation, I have nothing very good to report on painting whitewalls on new tires. Cheesh...
In my original post, I had just upgraded the tires on my old Kymco Grandvista to P-rated. And, old "Minnie Mouse" was just BEGGING for wide-whites. Trouble is, while I found a great Shinko 120-70-12 whitewall for the front, extensive searching produced NO whitewall available in my 140-70-12 rear-tire size. So I decided to do the old "rat" procedure of painting one.
I first tried "Dr. Whitewall" but did not follow the instructions to grind off ALL lettering, producing a completely "raw" tire surface. Apparently, THIS is MANDATORY and I didn't want to do that on a brand-new Michelin. I did disk-sand and thoroughly clean the new tire with lacquer-thinner as instructed. The Dr. Whitewall paint took MANY coats to cover the black. It left horrid brush-marks, and turned brown in days, and flaked off in big chunks in a week. So much for not grinding the sidewall to oblivion... If you did that, the product might work fine.
I then tried spray Krylon, Rustoleum, and brush-on latex outdoor house-paint. I even applied high-end white outdoor caulk with a Bondo-spatula... THAT worked best, lasting nearly a month... LOL! Some of these lasted a few weeks, but ALL turned brown and cracked badly.
As many have cautioned, a NEW tire "seeps" colorant, mold-release, and other unknown "schmootz" which "wicks" its way through the paint, turning it brown and causing it to crack, flake and depart from the tire. No amount of cleaning is going to totally eliminate that. Painting whitewalls truly works best on aged, sun-baked, dry-rotted rat-tires. Period. When the tire is so rotten that it's unsafe to ride, it's just right for painting... LOL!
I am determined, so I spent the last day sanding, wire-brushing and spray-wash-blasting the tire until it was as paint-free as I could make it. I also sanded the tire-tool-buggered-up old rim down to bare metal, spinning the wheel, engine running, against a disk-sander... Hmmmm... At least the RIM now looks great!
And I am starting over, using a different product: "Motor City Whitewall" paint. It is a completely different formulation from "Dr. Whitewall" and seems promising. Its instructions specify thorough cleaning, and sanding of the tire, but state it CAN be used over molded-in tire details so long as instructions are followed exactly. These include sanding, or wire-brushing of the tire surface, then CLEANING with straight BLEACH over and over until NO more brown crud appears on the rag.
Then, applying an initial VERY THIN coat, not worrying about coverage. This MUST be left to cure 24 hours. Then, successive coats may be applied until it's opaque-white, but EACH coat, MUST be left to cure for 24 hours, including the final coat, BEFORE riding/driving. Instructions say THAT is mandatory.
After missing the best week of riding weather of the year while each coat dried, I finished painting the tire Sunday, and began riding Monday night. So far, so good. A fast 75mph romp down the freeway, in the hot sun, produced NO cracking! THIS short test cracked EVERY other paint I tried before.
The snow-white paint IS showing SLIGHT discoloration, but not bad. This "Motor City Whitewall" paint applied MUCH smoother, and covered better than anything else I've tried, and I've tried a BUNCH... If it holds up without CRACKING or PEELING, I can live with a few "touch-up" coats now and then, if it "yellows" or "browns" some.
Only regular riding will prove if the paint will hold up. It has some great feedback from rat-rod drivers, and I'm hoping it will work out. I'll post again as it ages...
My problem stems from attempting to paint a NEW tire... And, a RADIAL tire which FLEXES a lot to boot. My research turned up numerous stories of rat-rod car drivers having good results painting OLD, dried-out SUN-BAKED and DRY-ROTTED tires with most any old white paint... Of course, these guys also SEEK the "rat" look, likely prizing it somewhat above safety concerns...
So, with a factory whitewall up front, I'm going to keep trying to maintain at least a "presentable" whitewall "simulation" at the rear... LOL!
As for painting a whitewall on any NEW tire however, I cannot recommend it (unless you're willing to take the disk-grinder to it, thinning the sidewall down to "marginal" levels). Save THAT technique for dressing up the 10-year-old bias-ply tire on a rusty rim, with cords peeping through the dry-rot...
Just updating for those who still want a whitewall in a size they don't come in...
Leo (wishing Shinko would make a 140-70-12 P-rated whitewall) in Texas...
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Post by Paladin on Oct 8, 2014 13:23:49 GMT -5
I picked up some rubberize fabric paint, (Michaels, Joanne, I don't remember, it was a decade ago) and the Jacket still looks good:  I didn't do the painting, my daughters are a far better artist than I am. |
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Post by xyshannen on Oct 8, 2014 13:45:56 GMT -5
Thats great Leo! Glad you finally found "something" that will work.
HEHE my whites will be here today. The UPS tracking says "out for delivery"
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Post by surfpick on Oct 8, 2014 15:29:25 GMT -5
I wonder how well Plasti-Dip would work?  Should be durable enough for sidewalls, someone here even used it to make treads: emiliereas.com/2013/01/03/diy-minimalist-running-socks/I dip guitar picks in it. You can thin it with Naptha. It comes in spray or liquid and it comes in white. |
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Post by earlwb on Oct 8, 2014 15:58:12 GMT -5
You know it makes you wonder how the tire factories make the whitewall tires too. They seem to hold up reaslly well too. There must be something they do, it may be secret it may not, but whatever it is it seems to work for them.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 8, 2014 22:19:31 GMT -5
You know it makes you wonder how the tire factories make the whitewall tires too. They seem to hold up reaslly well too. There must be something they do, it may be secret it may not, but whatever it is it seems to work for them. Since rubber is "naturally" white, I would think the factory mold simply uses white rubber first, then the black-dyed rubber gets put in afterward (behind) the white. Real rubber is great, but even THAT eventually shows "brown" or "yellow" from the black-dyed rubber behind the whitewall seeping through... Numerous guys who paid $500 and more for the high-end Koker tires have griped about it.
The MISERY we go through to look cool... LOLOLOL!
Leo
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 8, 2014 22:22:08 GMT -5
I picked up some rubberize fabric paint, (Michaels, Joanne, I don't remember, it was a decade ago) and the Jacket still looks good: I didn't do the painting, my daughters are a far better artist than I am. THAT looks GREAT! I've heard of the rubberized fabric paint, but it's as hard to find today as chicken lips... Must have been offensive to some moon-bat ecology bunch... A few rat-rod posts do recommend it IF you can find it.
Worth looking for though!
Leo
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 8, 2014 22:24:00 GMT -5
Some of the rat-rod sites DO recommend "Plasti-Dip". It's "removable"... supposedly anyway. It is one method I have not tried, but might work better than most.
Thanks for the tip!
Leo
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 8, 2014 22:35:09 GMT -5
Thats great Leo! Glad you finally found "something" that will work. HEHE my whites will be here today. The UPS tracking says "out for delivery" Well, the jury is STILL out, but it's looking "gooder and gooder"...
Today I rode the bejeebers out of "the mouse" pushing near 80mph for 20 miles, in 98-degree sun... Got the tires so hot you couldn't hold your hand on them, and... The stuff is STILL looking very good... In fact, BETTER than I thought! Yesterday, I saw what looked like slight discoloration, BUT it's NOT. Evidently, this stuff "Vulcanizes" with time and heat, and, it slightly THINNS out as it fully cures. This phenomenon also leaves the tire molding (brand, size, etc.) legible, looking MUCH more like a "factory" whitewall! I LIKE that!
What appeared to be discoloration is simply a very slight transparency in the paint, allowing the black tire to show through a little. IF... and I REALLY hope it IS what's going on here... That can be easily cured with a few extra coats down the road. I did follow the instructions to the letter, and it appears THIS stuff has some scientific voodoo going on with the 24-hour first thin coat, then the same full-day between successive coats, and again before driving. It seems like each coat "melts" into the one below, and shrinks up nice. Only my guess... I'll leave that to the science guyz... But THIS paint is definitely a different animal... Supposedly a modern latex reincarnation of a proven old-school Detroit oil-base paint originally made especially for tires. Sounds like a good story, anyway... LOL!
So far, NO cracking, NO peeling and NO actual discoloration... Only a slight "see-through" as it cures. This is THE most-promising stuff yet. Whether or not it lasts, I'll post pix.
Time will tell!
Leo
PS: You're gonna LOVE those new Shinko white meats! They ride like a Lincoln Town Car.
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Post by SylvreKat on Oct 9, 2014 6:46:13 GMT -5
Congrats on finally finding something that works, Leo! And hopefully it'll last, with only some touch-ups needed!  >'Kat |
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Post by xyshannen on Oct 9, 2014 7:44:55 GMT -5
That's great my brother, glad this stuff is working!
So I got my tires in and I was wrong about their size. Before I ordered them I looked up every calculator I could regarding converting 120/70/10 to inches like the 3.5 10 that I currently have. Everything I could find just told me that the new tires are 4.5 wide. I looked at this as a good thing as squeezing a 4.5 inch tire on a 3.5 inch rim should result in a tire that is a little taller. Well I got my tires and when put next to my factory 3.5s, the new ones are about 1/2 inch shorter. The only saving grace is that squeezing them onto a 3.5 inch rim should make up for some of that difference, but alas they will still be shorter, by what I estimate to be around 1/8th to 1/4 an inch.
I'm still going to use them simply because I don't know of any P rated white walls in a 3.5/10 inch tire. As I figure it, it's not the end of the world. I'm going to loos a lil top end, but again I don't plan on ever going over 70 and with the mods I'm currently doing, breaking 70 should be no problem. Also my scoot hardly ever goes past 6500 rpm, but with smaller tires I'm going to be operating at a higher RPM, And again, with mods and the cam I'm installing my power band goes all the way up to 8000 rpms. So yea that's it for now. Wish me luck.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 9, 2014 14:21:33 GMT -5
That's great my brother, glad this stuff is working! So I got my tires in and I was wrong about their size. Before I ordered them I looked up every calculator I could regarding converting 120/70/10 to inches like the 3.5 10 that I currently have. Everything I could find just told me that the new tires are 4.5 wide. I looked at this as a good thing as squeezing a 4.5 inch tire on a 3.5 inch rim should result in a tire that is a little taller. Well I got my tires and when put next to my factory 3.5s, the new ones are about 1/2 inch shorter. The only saving grace is that squeezing them onto a 3.5 inch rim should make up for some of that difference, but alas they will still be shorter, by what I estimate to be around 1/8th to 1/4 an inch. I'm still going to use them simply because I don't know of any P rated white walls in a 3.5/10 inch tire. As I figure it, it's not the end of the world. I'm going to loos a lil top end, but again I don't plan on ever going over 70 and with the mods I'm currently doing, breaking 70 should be no problem. Also my scoot hardly ever goes past 6500 rpm, but with smaller tires I'm going to be operating at a higher RPM, And again, with mods and the cam I'm installing my power band goes all the way up to 8000 rpms. So yea that's it for now. Wish me luck. Hey, I wish you all the luck in the world... But I don't think you'll need it.
Once the rear tire is mounted and fully inflated, it will probably be "fairly close" to the original tire diameter. Also, since you don't mind some serious wrenching, you could even go up a tooth in your final gearing, which would make up for any small discrepancy in the tire diameter.
As a "happy mistake" an eighth-inch or so smaller diameter tire will probably be just about right to keep your newly-modded engine "in the sweet-spot" anyway... Not too shabby!
Heck, you're ALREADY running a top-end with the 200cc+ scooters. THAT is FLYING on a Chinese 150! You're doing SOMETHING right there... LOL! If possible, it would be good if you could have the newly-mounted tire/wheel combos professionally balanced. Above around 60 mph, it really does make a difference.
I doubt you'll notice any major difference in top-end if the new tire is slightly smaller. Your engine mods will give you higher rpm to make up for it, and as a side benefit, you'll have a little better acceleration. Some riders might even intentionally go to a smaller-diameter tire when making engine-mods like yours.
Looking forward to seeing how the little beast looks with the whitewalls!
Ride safe,
Leo
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 9, 2014 14:34:57 GMT -5
Congrats on finally finding something that works, Leo! And hopefully it'll last, with only some touch-ups needed! >'Kat Thanks Kat!
It will take some riding to be sure this new stuff will stay put, but so far, it's light-years ahead of anything else I've tried. I'll give it a couple of weeks, and if it holds up, I'll take pix, then give it a couple more coats to fully-whiten the sidewalls again, take fresh pix, and see if that stays. With the amount of effort and frustration I've put into this miserable project, I want to be sure I document it well to help others avoid all the misery... LOL!
I wrote the seller of the paint asking for any info on how it works from coat to coat. It REALLY looks to me like the first thin coat (at least to some extent) fuses to the tire, and successive coats fuse to the coats below, forming a pretty strong simulation of one coat of solid rubber. Only a guess on my part, but if it's so, it's a good setup. Only downside is it takes 4-evah to paint, cure, paint, cure, paint, cure etc., etc. until a full whitewall is FINALLY achieved. Worth it though! (if it works...).
Time will tell. If it DOES work OK, my experience will be a good "how-to" for riders wanting that vintage "rat" look!
Enjoy that Italian scoot!
Leo
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Post by spandi on Oct 10, 2014 21:18:04 GMT -5
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 11, 2014 15:08:24 GMT -5
That's the stuff!
I've been putting on as many highway-speed-miles as possible, to test this stuff... So far, so good! A week of riding hard has not produced any cracking or peeling. No discoloration either. The ONLY problem is the "thinning" I mentioned. The stuff has become maybe, 15-20% "transparent" allowing a little of the black tire to show through the thinnest areas (like the raised-surface of lettering).
It still looks quite "presentable" (like a slightly "road-soiled" whitewall) so I'll give it a little more time to see if it gets any more transparent, then I'll re-coat it until opaque, and see if it stabilizes. I can live with occasional re-coating... It only takes minutes... aside from the full-day of drying! It's the cracking and peeling that's the "deal-breaker"... LOL!
I have a feeling it was the instructed bleach-cleaning, and religious adherence to the "24-hour" between coats that enhanced the product, but that's only a guess. It goes on VERY nicely (better than any other brush-on product I've tried) like a "creamy" smooth, high-end exterior house paint. And the recommended foam-brush (included) works perfectly. This stuff is hands-down, the best thing I've tried yet.
The few bad feedbacks it received, saying it discolored, are likely due to the transparent phenomenon, not actual discoloration. It fooled me too at first, since it WAS absolutely snow-white-opaque, then after a few days, looked slightly discolored... but the appearance was simply the tire showing through a little.
It appears that it actually does to some extent, "Vulcanize" or bond to the tire, and successive coats bond to each other. If not, the entire thickness of white would not thin to transparency. If it does NOT crack or peel over time, it will be something I'd recommend, even if it needs an occasional re-coat.
There is DEFINITELY some "real science" involved in making ANY paint that will adhere to a NEW tire. This stuff isn't perfect, but it is at least "on the right track".
I'll post pix of the "thinning" in a while. Then, update as I re-coat, and see how it stands up. I still need to be sure that regular riding won't degrade it to the flaking mess that other paints did.
Ride safe!
Leo
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