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Post by george112 on Sept 17, 2014 11:00:53 GMT -5
Alright my 50cc has been driving me crazy these past few days. I will layout what I have done so far to the scooter, and then the symptoms
So far I have:
Replaced fuel filter with one I got from home depot. It was meant for a riding lawn mower, its a lot bigger than the one I took off the scooter when I got it
Put fresh gas in
As well as some Seafoam
I purchased a carb rebuild kit and replaced the float and the needle that goes into the diaphragm. I also cleaned the carb out really well
I tried adjusting the valves using an aluminum can. (I know this is a no no, but hear me out first)
I tried adjusting the fuel/air mixture screw.
These ^^^^ are in no particular chronological order, but I will say that i messed with the fuel/air mixture screw BEFORE i tried adjusting the valves
Okay now the symptoms.
The scooter was running OKAY before I even did anything to it. It would start on about the second try, but the guy I got it from said he was using starter fluid to get it started as IT HAD BEEN SITTING FOR ATLEAST A YEAR. I never had to use it though
So I had it running on the center stand and moved the air/fuel mixture screw OUT. This was the first time I had messed with it, and EVER SINCE THEN my scooter has been giving me . It would be very very hard to start after that which is what prompted me to try and adjust the valves. Also when I would come to stops all my lights would flicker and the scooter wanted to die it seemed
Then my carb rebuild kit came in and I replaced the float and the needle. Took it out for a spin and noticed it was bogging when I would gas it full throttle. So Im thinking okay its running lean, i tried and tried to adjust the air/fuel mixture screw but to no avail. FINALLY i just put a piece of duct tape over 2 of the intake holes. Boom. Fixed the problem
So I did adjust the valves and I thought I fixed the problem. It would start on the first try and everything was great for almost a week until yesterday.
I took it for a spin yesterday, it cranked first try and everything was good. However I have noticed what appears to be white smoke coming out of my exhaust when it is idling. Like little puffs that eventually add up to being a cloud. Not thick, as you can see through it fine, but you can definitely say its white smoke.
Well after my spin I got tired of it having that duct tape on there and wanted to adjust the air/fuel screw again to eliminate that problem. It died and it took me nearly 2 hours to get it started again. I wrote down the instructions on how to adjust the screw and tried to follow them perfectly.
It was warmed up and I started by going 1/4th turn COUNTER CLOCKWISE. I waited 10-15 seconds and it seemed like nothing happened.
So I turned it back to where I started and waited another 10-15 seconds. Then I turned it 1/4th turn CLOCKWISE waited about 10-15 seconds and it died. I HAVENT GOTTEN IT STARTED SINCE.
I put the screw back tried to start it. Wouldn't crank.
I pulled the valve cover off and checked those. Wouldn't crank
I sat there forever seeming to check everything and it just won't start. Not even by kick.
I do notice though that when I am trying to start it, I smell like a fuel type smell. Is that normal?
This scoot is driving me nuts. Please help
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Post by ital on Sept 17, 2014 13:08:54 GMT -5
If you are at sea level to adjust the air\fuel ratio you need to tighten it all the way, and then turn it counter clock wise 2.5 turns. that should be perfect!! See if that works!!! Good Luck - Ital
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Post by george112 on Sept 17, 2014 13:32:06 GMT -5
Thank you for the response.
I have already tried that. I have tried 2 1/2 turns out. 2 turns out. 3 turns. 1 turn everything. It just does not want to start right now. I can sometimes get it close, but it only last for a second then nothing.
I think it has something to do with maybe my fuel. too much?? because of the bigger filter?? Or my valves need to be adjusted with a feeler gauge??
Idk at this point
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Post by alleyoop on Sept 17, 2014 13:39:43 GMT -5
Yes white looking smoke is raw gas being spit out. Too big of a fuel filter the suction may not be enough to allow fuel to fill the carb bowl. Alleyoop
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Post by george112 on Sept 17, 2014 13:57:34 GMT -5
Is there a place to buy a smaller fuel filter? Like a physical store? Or do i have to resort to buying online?
Also would this cause the bogging? I thought that had to do with running lean. I am just trying to understand that way I know what to attack and try first
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Post by alleyoop on Sept 17, 2014 14:47:37 GMT -5
Bogging can be caused by either to much fuel or not enough, normally it is not enough fuel and it is when you open up the throttle it is sucking in to much air and not enough fuel. Are you twisting the throttle wide open and it BOGS or are you easing on the throttle and it bogs. Do you have the air filter on if not put it on otherwise it will suck in to much air.
Sucking in to much air can also be that you have AIR LEAKS cracked intake manifold cracked Air Filter tubing etc..
But since you say white smoke which is raw gas then it is to much fuel. Take the VACUUM hose off going to the PETCOCK and see if it is wet from fuel if so the petcock is bad and it is sucking in fuel through the vacuum hose.
If there is a scooter shot or motorcycle shop around they will have fuel filters. Alleyoop
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Post by alleyoop on Sept 17, 2014 14:54:37 GMT -5
Can you take a picture of the carb area and hoses and fuel filter. That would help maybe we can see something that is not right. I always say Pictures ar worth a thousand words. Alleyoop
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Post by george112 on Sept 17, 2014 15:04:29 GMT -5
The bogging happens about when I get to 20 mph. I can give it WOT at take off and do just fine. but as soon as it hits about 20 mph it'll bog the motor down. If i gradually get up to speed there is no bogging.
I put the duct tape on the air intake and it cured the bogging down. I checked everything for leaks as far as cracks and what not, but I will double check. The scooter was running fine until i decided to try and adjust the air/fuel screw.
I will take pictures after work.
Thanks for the help.
I have a Honda motorsports store up the road from here that sell Ruckus' . Ill give them a shot for the filter.
Also I wanted to add something about the air filter. Not all the screws are in it actually holding it together. Maybe one or 2 is missing. It is a stock box. But like i said it ran no problem without those with no duct tape or bogging when i first got it
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Post by alleyoop on Sept 17, 2014 15:25:47 GMT -5
What and where did you use Duck Tape? Well if it was running good and then you played around with the fuel mixture then you messed up the mixture due to whatever you taped up. Alleyoop
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Post by george112 on Sept 17, 2014 15:32:55 GMT -5
On the stock air filter it has that tube with 4 holes in it to allow air in. It also has a small hole in the middle of those. I put duct tape over 2 of the bigger holes and it cured the bogging issue.
It was running just fine like that, until yesterday when I decided to adjust the screw again so as to get rid of the duct tape.
From the duct tape fixing the problem i concluded that too much air was getting in and not enough fuel. Am i right to think that? I took the tape off yesterday while it was idling and tried to adjust the screw according to instruction I found on this site. I went Counter Clockwise 1/4th turn and waited. Nothing happened so I returned to starting point. Then I went 1/4th turn Clockwise and it died about 8 seconds later. I have not gotten the scoot running since that time
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Post by alleyoop on Sept 17, 2014 15:36:54 GMT -5
Yes to much air and not enough fuel. And you have the same problem now, so tape up like you did before and turn the fuel ratio screw at least 2 turns out counter clockwise from the closed position. Alleyoop
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Post by george112 on Sept 17, 2014 16:15:58 GMT -5
I will try that again when I get home and post results.
Would that contribute to my starting problems? I mean I put the tape back on, adjusted the screw back even hooked up a car battery and still no dice.
Im thinking its one of the following
Petcock Big fuel Filter Flooding??
Spark plug is good
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Post by george112 on Sept 17, 2014 21:20:27 GMT -5
I'm thinking its the petcock
it doesn't seem to be getting fuel. The fuel filter looks backed up, if that makes sense
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Post by george112 on Sept 17, 2014 21:33:56 GMT -5
Nope not petcock. Sucked on vacuum line and gas came out
Idk what the heck is wrong at this point
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Post by Moat on Sept 17, 2014 21:47:25 GMT -5
Sounds to me like you might be facing more than a single issue...
1) Yes - having it accept WOT better after taping off the air snorkel inlet holes would indicate that it's too lean at full throttle... i.e - likely needs bigger main jet (as long as there are no other air leaks, such as caused by a split intake manifold, leaking manifold gasket, cracked vacuum hoses, etc...)..
2) The mixture screw is in reality an idle mixture adjustment screw, and is designed as a way to dial in the idle mix so as it idles smoothly, starts easily, and comes down from throttle into a smooth, consistent idle. It has little effect at high throttle openings, and playing around with it to address an issue at WOT will only serve to screw up that otherwise smooth, consistent idle. So once the idle is dialed in... don't mess with it - the WOT problems need to be be properly addressed elsewhere... and not with an idle mixture screw adjustment.
3) As long as it's not too restrictive and not capturing any large air pockets/bubbles, a larger fuel filter will be no problem at all (in fact, beneficial if anything - with it's larger surface area to catch more debris before plugging, as well as often using a paper filtering media, which is far more effective at catching small debris than the fine plastic screen that typically comes stock). Some visible bubbles inside the filter are normal, but fuel delivery can act a little "wonky" if they get sizeable. An air pocket can usually be cleared by tilting the filter - bubble up towards the fuel tank - whils sucking on the petcock vacuum hose, opening the petcock's valve and allowing the bubble to rise up into the tank.
I have a big John Deere paper filter on my ATM... works a treat.
4) The white smoke at idle... does the smoke itself smell more like fuel, or more like oil? I'm guessing that it may very well be oil, as if an engine is otherwise idling normally, the mixture would be close - certainly not rich enough to produce a cloud of smoke without stumbling/faltering/stalling. A tiny visible bit of smoke, maybe - but not any substantial amount (i.e. - cloud). If oil, then...
5) Check compression, if at all possible. Significant oil smoke out the exhaust could mean broken ring(s), which might be the cause of the difficulty in getting the engine started (low compression).
6) Do use feeler gauge on the valve adjustment - they're only a coupla' bucks, and should last many years/uses. These little GY6's can be a bit finicky when adjusting things... just as well get it right and avoid the possibility of improper clearance contributing to some other running or tuning issues, downstream.
7) Did you check/set float height when you replaced the float/needle/seat?? If incorrectly set, that could easily be a cause of the WOT troubles (as well as others).
8) You also mention replacing "the needle that goes into the diaphragm" - do you mean the slide needle? If so, that's normally not a regular replacement item (too risky matching it's taper profile from other than the original carb manufacturer), and should only be replaced if damaged or for more extreme (un-common) fine-tuning purposes. Also make sure it's installed correctly, with the needle's clip in the proper groove and the retaining cap right side up. And while buttoning up, make sure the delicate slide diaphragm and cover are installed correctly with the diaphragm's edge bead properly seated in the carb bodies' groove! A little tricky, but paramount!
9) And yes - flooding. With their auto enricheners - and often being a bit finicky to start in the first place - it seems that if these motors don't start on the first try, they tend to flood - as the enrichener continues to deliver too much fuel to an already "wet" combustion area. Holding the throttle wide open and continuing cranking to clear it is about the best (but still sucky) way to get 'em to fire, at that point, it seems.
FWIW... just some stuff to consider...
Bob
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