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Post by skyrider on Aug 13, 2014 11:26:41 GMT -5
I am running a tire experiment on my Reflex. I thought this might be of interest to others.
When I bought the Reflex they put a Bridgestone tire on the back (the front was still useable). It lasted 'til I got back from my trip in 2013 to Arkie land. That was about 7000 total miles on the rear tire. At that point I bought a pair of Shinko tires and changed both. (Unlike the clones the Reflex runs 120/70/13 in front and 130/ 70/12 in the rear). The rear Shinko was gone in 4000 (front is still good for quite a while yet). While we were near Riverside CA I ran over to Chaparral Motor Sports and picked up a Michelin Booper, that lasted 4000. Next I bought another Shinko (different series) and at 1250 miles is was going fast, I could have probably safely run it another 500 miles or so.
Somewhere I saw a post by someone who reported that he and some friends has run a 145R12 auto tire on the rear with good results. That is the size used on the early Geo Metros (really great cars). They are hard to find but I located one on line and ordered it. Since we were in PA visiting our son and will be here longer than we are in many places I went ahead and installed that tire so if it was unsatisfactory I could get something else and change again.
I have put more than 300 miles on it and so far really like it. I was unsure how it would handle on hard corners but so far I can see no difference on that. It is about 10% more circumference so it makes that much difference and slows the engine down considerable which is great for cruising.
I have been riding through the hills of PA and eastern OH pushing it hard on corners to be sure the all weather tread pattern is going to hold when leaning hard. Dry road, wet road, and during hard rain plus 50 miles of 70 MPH interstate. I like it plus it seems to have raised my gas mileage noticeably.
As the miles mount up I will post updates here on this thread. I don't know of any other brand or model that this could be done on.
Skyrider
PS: The tires on my Jonway YY250T was about the same. 2000 on original and 4000 on subsequent rear tires.
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Post by shalomdawg on Aug 13, 2014 18:50:45 GMT -5
howdy
that is interesting and would reduce cost per mile and be less headache if it will last three times as long or more. i''m actually really surprised at how many get so few miles on a tire as i've had three scooters with over 8,000 miles on the rear and no discernable wear. my kymco 250 had 8 grand on the rear and looked like new. the bv500 had 8 grand on the rear and looked like new. my bv 350 has now 12,600 and when the original tire got a nail in it was over 8 grand and still looks like new hanging on my garage wall. that was shenko, metzler and michelin. anyway let us know how that works its way out for ya
lotsa miles and smiles to ya
ken
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Post by bnc on Aug 14, 2014 1:12:38 GMT -5
I agree with shalomdawg. I also have a Reflex but I have 10,000 miles on the rear Bridgestone HOOP and still no where near the wear indicators. I mostly ride freeways at 65-70 mph.
If I were only getting 4,000 miles per tire, I might be looking at other options too but so far it is more like triple that.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 14, 2014 4:28:12 GMT -5
Tread life depends on the rubber formulation, tire inflation, riding style and how many chip roads you ride on. Really course chip roads can grind down a soft rubber tire in a few hundred miles. Some of the really cheap tires are made of such a hard rubber they are almost plastic and will last a good long time however they won't stick to a corner unless you are on a course chip road.
Making your bike into a flat liner became popular with the old Goldwing crowd and many swear by it however depending on the bike it can throw the balance quite a bit off.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Aug 14, 2014 11:35:20 GMT -5
Skyrider,
Back in the sixties, we often put 16" car (or more often truck) tires on the rear of our Harleys. They worked fine for us, but back then, it was the stone-age of motorcycling. I'm sure the flat-across tread and HARD bias ply construction must have caused our Hogs to ride on the "edge" of the square tire, leaving only a half-inch or so of tire on the road when cornering... But it never caused any of us to slide sideways around curves.
A modern, radial-ply tire with its more rounded edges should be MUCH better on a 2-wheeler, having some flex, and keeping more tread on the ground. It's certainly worth a try.
Different tires DO make a BIG difference in 2-wheel performance. I got a used Kymco Grandvista 250 almost a year ago, and it had brand-new Kenda "J" rated tires. I do a lot of freeway riding, so I replaced them with "P" rated tires.
The original Kendas had a rock-hard ride, and a noticeable "thump-thump-thump" when decelerating from highway speed. The scooter also had a very slight tendency to "wobble" when decelerating from 40mph to a stop.
With the new "P" rated (92mph) tires, the ride is smooth as glass, the thump is gone, AND the little front-end wobble is ALSO gone. AMAZING!
In my case I had to mix brands, since I wanted whitewalls. Shinko was the only brand I could find offering a "P" rated whitewall 120/70/12 for the front. However, their matching rear size whitewall of 130/70/12 is still 10mm too small diameter for my required 140/70/12. I had to go with a different tire, and paint the whitewall.
My dealer is a real gem! He actually researched his vendors, asking what rear tire would be most compatible with a Shinko street-tread front. Several manufacturers actually worked with him, and recommended a Michelin Power Pure. Apparently that was good advice! The Shinko and Michelin combo could not be better. The old scooter is now as comfortable and predictable on the highway as a heavy cruiser motorcycle... All the way up to a 40-50mph "monster-tailwind" induced 95mph 5-mile run a few days ago... LOL! And NO... the old GV will NOT normally run over 90mph... She's strictly a 65-75mph ride without a hurricane pushing her...
My old Chinese 150 had 4,000 miles on the original Kenda tires when I traded it in, and the tires still were  %. Virtually no tread wear. But all my riding is on smooth, paved roads.
Rockynv is absolutely right about so MANY factors being involved in tire-life. I don't think there is any "average" tire life-span, regardless of price, or quality.
Please keep us posted!
Ride safe,
Leo in Texas |
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Post by rockynv on Aug 14, 2014 12:00:41 GMT -5
I run a S rated Dunlop 404 130/  -15 on the back and get 10,000 or so miles with a S rated Sava MC28 120/70-15 taking care of the front which lasts around 12,000 or so miles riding pretty aggressively in Tropical temps however others on the same bike with the same tires only get 4,000 miles and sometimes less up in the Carolinas and I have more than 100 lbs on them. They ride mostly country roads below 50 mph while I run the interstate and beltways with traffic at times flowing over mph in the 75 mph zones and yes the little Aprilia keeps up without a tail wind. It is all very fluid as to what type of tread life you will get from a tire. Sometimes it has more to do with how long you wait to grab the brakes when coming up to a stop with those who wait the longest getting the shortest tread life. |
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Post by oldchopperguy on Aug 14, 2014 12:29:49 GMT -5
Oh, Rocky...
I'm now suffering "cc envy"... LOL! The old "mouse" is about 15hp "short" of your Italian ride. (Insert pathetic, weepy sad face here)...  The old mouse just plain ain't up to over 75mph cruise... And to think, I ALMOST bought a minty Vespa 300 instead. Oh, the shame of it all, as Lee Marvin might muse...Just kidding with you, you're one of the best... And those eye-tralian rides are FASSST! Cool! HMMM... Now I wonder, just what would your Aprilia do with a Florida HURRICANE pushing it! Woo HOO! Ride safe, Leo
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Post by mobiker on Aug 14, 2014 13:00:20 GMT -5
When I was riding a motorcycle a few riders put car tires on the back of their bikes. I think it was for the fat tire look and more milage. Check out some ot the motorcycle forums.
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Post by fugaziiv on Aug 14, 2014 14:13:00 GMT -5
Just food for thought, putting a car tire on a bike is commonly called riding darkside. If you google that you can find many of the pros and cons associated. It's a pretty heated argument. I'm certainly not going to tell anyone what to do here, but suffice to say I don't think I'd ride with a car tire on my bike.
Matt
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Post by bnc on Aug 14, 2014 15:26:46 GMT -5
Chip sealed roads as mentioned above might explain the huge difference. No chip sealed roads near me but a search of the Internet says chip seal can wear out your tires twice as fast or even faster.
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Post by skyrider on Aug 14, 2014 20:47:32 GMT -5
I took another 50 mile ride today through the hill country of eastern Ohio, very twisty and hilly. I'm just an old guy cruising and most of the miles were 35 to 45 stuff. One stretch of major highway at 60 MPH. At this point I am completely satisfied with the tire. Do I recommend it to others--no, it has to be their decision. As the miles run up I will report again.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 15, 2014 4:24:20 GMT -5
Oh, Rocky...
I'm now suffering "cc envy"... LOL! The old "mouse" is about 15hp "short" of your Italian ride. (Insert pathetic, weepy sad face here)... The old mouse just plain ain't up to over 75mph cruise... And to think, I ALMOST bought a minty Vespa 300 instead. Oh, the shame of it all, as Lee Marvin might muse...Just kidding with you, you're one of the best... And those eye-tralian rides are FASSST! Cool! HMMM... Now I wonder, just what would your Aprilia do with a Florida HURRICANE pushing it! Woo HOO! Ride safe, Leo I got caught out on the right hand coast of Florida about 2 years ago when there was one just offshore and bugged out on the Aprilia in the rain when the Tropical Rain Bands were blowing across the road left to right and the bike handled quite well despite tank trucks to the right of me getting blown into the breakdown lane with the wheels on their drivers side up in the air. I was running Pirelli at the time and held it back to around 80 or so most of the trip since it was windy and the road was wet. The fairing probably helped with stability and I can't imagine what it would have been like with a more vertical windshield. A friend upgraded to the Vespa 300 GT and the first time he rode it to work he bliped it coming around the corner and got clocked at 20 over during strict enforcement due to folks blowing through the crosswalk areas from the parking lots to the facility up the road. He checked himself and hit the brakes as soon as he realize how fast the bike was going and it was only a moments error and they caught him on radar with a photo gun so he got a reduced $280 fine instead of the full amount. The 300 with the 12 inch wheels pulls hard but doesn't seem to have as much top end as the 250 with the bigger tires and the fairing. His bike does have the vertical windshield so that may have some bearing on things too. Still a very nice ride. |
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Post by bandito2 on Aug 15, 2014 19:44:10 GMT -5
I am running a tire experiment on my Reflex. I thought this might be of interest to others. <SNIP> Somewhere I saw a post by someone who reported that he and some friends has run a 145R12 auto tire on the rear with good results. That is the size used on the early Geo Metros (really great cars). They are hard to find but I located one on line and ordered it. Since we were in PA visiting our son and will be here longer than we are in many places I went ahead and installed that tire so if it was unsatisfactory I could get something else and change again. I have put more than 300 miles on it and so far really like it. I was unsure how it would handle on hard corners but so far I can see no difference on that. It is about 10% more circumference so it makes that much difference and slows the engine down considerable which is great for cruising. I have been riding through the hills of PA and eastern OH pushing it hard on corners to be sure the all weather tread pattern is going to hold when leaning hard. Dry road, wet road, and during hard rain plus 50 miles of 70 MPH interstate. I like it plus it seems to have raised my gas mileage noticeably. As the miles mount up I will post updates here on this thread. I don't know of any other brand or model that this could be done on. Skyrider PS: The tires on my Jonway YY250T was about the same. 2000 on original and 4000 on subsequent rear tires. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Well, I guess you have me to blame or thank as the case may be for starting the darkside treatment of the Reflex. (way back in June of 2008) I used a Federal 145/70R12 which was used for 35,000 miles (yes, that is 35 thousand miles) and probably could have gone a few thousand miles more, but I wanted to try out an even taller tire. (it required a modification to the swing arm, so generally, I would not recommend that for most.) The 145/70R12 is really not too hard to find, you just need to know where to look. Another tire that will work and is easier to find is a 145/80R12. It is most often a winter tire, but will still work for all season use on the Reflex and requires no modification to the bike. I've been beyond just experimentation for quite some time. There are other scooters that use car tires as well. There are Honda Silverwing600 (I for one) and Burgman riders that use a car tire and surprisingly even a Piaggio MP3 rider that uses car tires all around. I know of over 2 dozen Reflex riders that have gone to the "Darkside" and most have said they will not go back to using standard scooter tires on the rear of their Reflex again. Indeed it was a hotly debated topic early on. It still does flare up from time to time and continues to be maligned and misunderstood; especially by those with no actual experience with it. I've been through most of the arguments pro & con and have learned quite a bit along the way. To put it into as small a nutshell as I can: It has not been shown to be unsafe by any scientific empirical method or actual, real life physical testing..... NONE. The establishment seems to have claimed liability issues as the reason for not taking the risk of actual testing. OTOH, there is plenty of reporting of safe use for millions of collective miles by many, many riders without incident. Oh, there has been plenty of speculation and paper theory of why it should be dangerous by the so called experts, but actual experience trumps theory in my view. I am just about done with another long piece on "The Darkside according to bandito2" It covers quite a bit of ground regarding car tire use on the Reflex scooter and bikes in general. Explains differences in the tires and corrects some misconceptions. Like how the rubber compound of car tires is actually softer than the rubber compound of motorcycle tires... IT'S TRUE! And how that even though car tire rubber is softer, they last longer because the load and wear is shared across the full width of the tread. On a motorcycle tire however, only about 1/4 to 1/3 of the available tread can be used at any one time. And since bikes spend most of their life upright, it is no wonder that the center-line of bike tire tread wears out first. And I could go on, but you get the picture I think. Oh yeah, welcome to the Darkside. |
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Post by skyrider on Aug 15, 2014 21:38:56 GMT -5
Thanks bandito2, I didn't remember who or where I had read your account. Another 60+ miles today in the Ohio hills and back roads further convinces me that was the right choice.
I used to get 40,000 plus on my Geo Metro tires and find it hard to believe they will do very much less on the Reflex.
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Post by skyrider on Oct 2, 2014 16:12:30 GMT -5
Now with about 3000 miles on that Yokohama 145R12 tire I can say that I am totally satisfied with it. A different variator that shifted out slower would be in order since the tire is so much larger in diameter.
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%. Virtually no tread wear. But all my riding is on smooth, paved roads.
-15 on the back and get 10,000 or so miles with a S rated Sava MC28 120/70-15 taking care of the front which lasts around 12,000 or so miles riding pretty aggressively in Tropical temps however others on the same bike with the same tires only get 4,000 miles and sometimes less up in the Carolinas and I have more than 100 lbs on them. They ride mostly country roads below 50 mph while I run the interstate and beltways with traffic at times flowing over 
