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Post by spandi on Jun 1, 2014 22:34:24 GMT -5
How is it insulting to state that Chinese scooters are vastly inferior to Japanese and even Taiwanese scooters? These are facts, and people insulted by truth are often the ones in denial  and it's impossible to debate with people clouding their own judgement, so I don't even try. I'm sorry if me stating my feelings about different scooters offends you, but the OP asked for advice, and that's what I'm giving him, based on my personal experiences with several examples of each. Some people don't even realize that you can get good looking, low mileage used quality ORIGINALS to the inferior clones people are buying for almost the same money. This to me is tragic, so I make a point to let them know. Well let's see... 1) Vastly Inferior. Many Chinese scoot owners have put THOUSANDS of miles on their scoots with just regular maintenance (AFTER proper pdi) We have riders who think nothing of taking their machines out for hundreds of miles at a clip. 2) "Clouding their own judgement?" sounds like someone is obsessed and and falling back on pseudo certainty rather than looking at the evidence that can be found in this very forum. 3) "inferior" clones people are buying for almost the same money. (there's that word again) Try one half to one third of said money. 4) Quality "ORIGINALS" My scoot isn't a copy of anything, and in fact is as "original" as any, and has beautiful lines to prove it. 5) You also fail to take into account that the Chinese are continually improving, both in manufacturing ability and quality of the finished product. (the very same road the Japanese once took.) There is no doubt that the machines you favor are well made, beautiful, and reliable scooters. But to discount ALL of the Chinese product is simply unrealistic and not reflective of the evolving trends. The future of scooting belongs to the Chinese.  |
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Post by ltdhpp on Jun 2, 2014 6:51:44 GMT -5
Yup... denial 1) just because there are a few 'good' ones, doesn't make the rest any better. 2)yeah, most of the evidence here shows that China scoots are problematic, some to a nightmarish level. 3), no, the same money. I'm talking about USED Jap scoots, for the same/close to same price as its new china clone (plus PDI and China to Japan parts upgrade list.) and still being better off. 4)did I ever say ALL China scoots are clones? nope. 5)you coulda fooled me! maybe by strength in numbers... lol |
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Post by SylvreKat on Jun 2, 2014 7:21:06 GMT -5
Here's one fact against Chinese scooters--the long list of things you should/must replace (hoses, clamps, etc etc) before driving it even once.
Here's one fact for Chinese scooters--if you're mechanical, once you get it all tinkered with they can give you many thousands of miles for less than my Italian Stallion cost.
That should be the number one first question anybody considering their first scooter should ask--can I work on it, or do I have a buddy who can? If not, stay away from Chinese (as my Harley-friend advised me). If so, then start looking at all the options out there, new Chinese vs used Chinese vs used Jap/It/Tai/Ind. And choose whatever best fits you as well as best fits your budget.
>'Kat
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Post by ltdhpp on Jun 2, 2014 11:39:24 GMT -5
I agree Kat! If a China scoot it what fits your needs/budget/expectations and you are a tinkerer, go for it. A good PDI will get many thousand happy miles out of most China scoots, but there is also an equal chance it could be riddled with problems.
However, the decision to buy Chinese must be an educated one, including exploring all other options such as used non-China, and is what I am preaching.
Personally, I would go for a used China scoot over a new one, with a couple thousand miles on it. Most of the bugs will be worked out, and hopefully any major flaws would have shown themselves by then.
But, from reading posts here and on other scooter forums, it seems 10K (15 if you are lucky) miles is the average life expectancy of a China scoot.
Average life of a Jap/Italian scoot? 50,000 miles. The Helix I bought for parts had 69,000 on it. 69 thousand! You think a China scoot is going to do that? Nope!
Plus, even buying a used Jap/Itl scoot, you are left with something that actually has re-sale value. Craigslist, even in my small town, is FULL of China scoots (most of them broken) that they are pretty much giving away.
A non-running Jap/Itl 50cc sells for about the same price as a NEW China 50cc. What does that tell you??
It is quite safe to say non-China scoots have better brakes, better headlights, better quality everything. They have more options that the clones leave out, like a parking brake and a split-braking system in my case.
Ever seen the front brake on a reflex clone? It's the same generic caliper you see on China 150's and nicer 50's. A Reflex has a 3-piston NISSIN caliper, the same brand that goes on Honda motorcycles.
Do you think the mufflers fall off of non-China scoots? Do you think people find non-lubed steering head bearings in non-China scoots? Do you think tire valve stems pop out of non-China scoots?
Purchasing something you are trusting your life with should not include going through it to 'fix' everything wrong with it before you even ride it. Your life could be at stake - how bad do you want to save that few hundred dollars?
Like I've said, I think it's tragic to knowingly compromise quality and safety to save a few hundred bucks and get something 'new'. But if people do, they should be educated, informed, and prepared for the can of worms they might be opening.
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Post by spandi on Jun 2, 2014 15:36:04 GMT -5
Yup... denial 1) just because there are a few 'good' ones, doesn't make the rest any better. 2)yeah, most of the evidence here shows that China scoots are problematic, some to a nightmarish level. 3), no, the same money. I'm talking about USED Jap scoots, for the same/close to same price as its new china clone (plus PDI and China to Japan parts upgrade list.) and still being better off. 4)did I ever say ALL China scoots are clones? nope. 5)you coulda fooled me! maybe by strength in numbers... lol In checking things over I think I've gotten to the crux of the matter. You bought a QMJ scooter and had less than stellar performance from it right? Well I hate to be the bearer of belated bad news, but 2008 is INFAMOUS as being the worst in production quality of almost any year to date. (it was when gas prices shot up to near record levels and the Chinese were turning them out as fast as possible) I've heard more horror stories from that year than any other, so I can well understand your bitterness, but that doesn't mean everyone has had the same experience as you. (it's pretty common knowledge that the 10-11-12 model year scooters were more carefully built.) But if you find Honda suits your needs, all the better, just as long as you enjoy the ride. |
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Post by bnc on Jun 2, 2014 16:45:48 GMT -5
Here is some food for thought. My first job out of school was with a manufacturer that produced a product so unreliable that it was guaranteed to fail within its warranty period. The company was not very happy to have to absorb all those warranty repairs costs.
I was part of the team working on the replacement product. There was tremendous effort and concern that this chapter in the companies history not be repeated.
One big problem we found was that it was not possible to simply assembly a product and have it be reliable. There was the issue of infant mortality. These were failures caused by parts that were weak but were able to pass incoming inspection tests. If they were assembled into the product and the entire product burned in for several days at elevated temperature most of the infant mortality failures were caught before the product left the plant.
For those who want to save money with a crated or kit product, one of the consequences will be that the reliability can never be as high as an assembled product that has undergone final test and inspection no matter who manufactures it.
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Post by ltdhpp on Jun 2, 2014 18:08:17 GMT -5
hhmmm... my 50cc was also a 2008... so maybe my feelings from my main experiences with China scoots are biased.
Well........... I still stand by my point that even compared to a good China scooter that behaves itself, I feel like you can get so much more for just a little more money in a used non-Chinese, if you can find one for sale.
I was actually tossing around the idea of one of those 250cc Roketa clones... then this Reflex popped up outside the dealer like an omen .
I often wonder how I would have done hitting that deer on the Roketa, between braking ability and how it handled the impact...
I did pay for 1 1/4 Roketas in buying the Reflex (it had really low miles) but you bet your arse I'm glad I did.
Also, Holy crap! I just looked at some prices on the first 4 scooter wholesale sites Google gave me.
$1,900 for a 2014 Roketa 250??? There are two Reflexes near me on CL for $1,600...!!
I would be ape- mad if I shelled out $1,900 to get a lemon (IF it was a lemon... better? )
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Post by alleyoop on Jun 2, 2014 18:53:06 GMT -5
This is like people telling everyone what oil is best and what to us and what gas etc..Everybody has their favorite this and that and everyone will swear by them. But nobody has mentioned when your brand scoot goes south and you take it in to get fixed you better sell your house(HAHA). Any scoot no matter who makes it will have something eventually go south and if it is a brand scooter you may have to sell your house to get it back out of the shop(HAHA).
I have a Yamaha and Honda dealer down the street from me and I sometimes go in and buy Visu Fuel filters and the back room is loaded with your brand scoots getting fixed and or waiting to get fixed. They also have a fenced in outside which is loaded with downed scoots then they have a separate section with about I counted about 25 and asked what are they waiting for with a tag on them. The mechanic said they are fixed but the owners do not want to pay the bill I laughed and said little high HUH and he smiled. So I asked if they don't come in then what he said they can sell them after 6 months he said they take up to much space.
Alleyoop
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Post by spandi on Jun 2, 2014 19:50:53 GMT -5
hhmmm... my 50cc was also a 2008... so maybe my feelings from my main experiences with China scoots are biased. Well........... I still stand by my point that even compared to a good China scooter that behaves itself, I feel like you can get so much more for just a little more money in a used non-Chinese, if you can find one for sale. I was actually tossing around the idea of one of those 250cc Roketa clones... then this Reflex popped up outside the dealer like an omen . I often wonder how I would have done hitting that deer on the Roketa, between braking ability and how it handled the impact... I did pay for 1 1/4 Roketas in buying the Reflex (it had really low miles) but you bet your arse I'm glad I did. Also, Holy crap! I just looked at some prices on the first 4 scooter wholesale sites Google gave me. $1,900 for a 2014 Roketa 250??? There are two Reflexes near me on CL for $1,600...!! I would be ape- mad if I shelled out $1,900 to get a lemon (IF it was a lemon... better? ) Yep, it's a start. (I kind of figured the China product wasn't doing you any favors  ) I remember a rider (250 Znen) who had the main bearing blow out in something like 2200 miles. Another rider (same model) put the time and effort ( Pirelli tires, Mukuni fuel pump, regular oil changes etc.) to make his scoot right, only to have the main crank blow out at 1500 miles as well. What did both scoots have in common besides model and make? You guessed it, BOTH were made in 2008. Now the funny thing is I've seen ads from owners selling this very model with some pretty high mileage on them, the difference? they were built a few years later, and one had almost 25,000 miles on it and was still being used as a daily driver at the time of sale. |
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Post by bnc on Jun 2, 2014 20:45:44 GMT -5
When I was shopping for a Chinese scooter, they told me their shop rate was $100/hour. As I was waiting, the person in front of me was quoted $175 just to determine what was wrong. The Kawasaki/Honda dealer's shop rate was $110/hour. I was quoted $350 for a carburetor rebuild but the parts were less than $50 of the total. No matter where the bike came from, here we have to pay US labor rates.
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Post by alleyoop on Jun 2, 2014 20:56:34 GMT -5
And that is for a rebuilt carb only that is why I said sell your house  Alleyoop |
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Post by bnc on Jun 2, 2014 21:29:53 GMT -5
My point was the Chinese bike dealer quoted $280 + parts to rebuild my carburetor and the Kawasaki/Honda dealer quoted $300 + parts. The cost is all in US labor not material. The Chinese dealer's shop works on other brands too.
In both cases, the quote included the shop taking carburetor out of the bike although with the Chinese bike dealer I offered to supply him with shop manual because he didn't have one.
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Post by alleyoop on Jun 2, 2014 21:44:57 GMT -5
And I say the $175 charge to just determine what is wrong is way out of line and you should find another shop, they are crooks. And $300.00 plus parts at the honda dealer, 3 hours to rebuild a carb??? you can count the parts on your hand that ALL CARBS have and takes less than an hour to replace. So you see what a shop charges for a job that is less than an hours work. That is why at the shop down the street from me the bills on the 25 scoots or so high that people cannot afford the get them out. Most shops are worse than a car dealer really. Reason is they charge a lot because they do not sell scooters every day maybe 1 a month which will not pay their bills so like every shop and car dealers make it up in the back room screwing the poor slobs that are not mechanically inclined.
Alleyoop
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Post by jerseyboy on Jun 2, 2014 21:57:17 GMT -5
I love my Taotao 150 china girl! Its the best bike I ever owned atleast the very funnest! Got mine dropped off in a crate did all the PDI stuff and then some,,also have to know how to treat the motor when you ride,,just cant go around WOT everywhere you go slamming the high RPM's downhill and stuff  ,,thats asking for trouble.I cruise around 35-45 MPH all day long and my china girl has never skipped a beat,,well accept for the one time she left me stranded out in the middle of nowhere due to a bum coil,,it was a racing coil,,the stock coil is still kicking 2500km and counting..heck if the motor blows its so cheap to repair or even buy a new motor for $300 off ebay,,now where can you get that deal..lol  |
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Post by alleyoop on Jun 2, 2014 22:21:40 GMT -5
Got that right Jersey, imagine what a HONDA motor would cost you and then to put it in |
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
