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Post by prodigit on Mar 15, 2013 18:11:35 GMT -5
Since I have nothing else to do right now, but wait, I thought it interesting to calculate the necessary length of an exhaust pipe before the muffler (or pot).
Because it includes a lot of difficult calculations I can really not do, I thought of simplifying the process a lot (I'm not an engineer) to get an approximate length for a pipe, with my calculations, close to what an engineer would find; but leave the more advanced and precise stuff for the real engineers.
Anyway, I came to the following results: The speed of sound is ~340.29 m/s in air. According to what I read, it is faster when under pressure (in air), and when the temperature is increased, so for easy sake, let's say at an exhaust it goes ~350m/s.
An scoot starts picking up speed ~1500RPM, but it's effective peak band (where you want it to be working optimally) is ~5k RPM most of the time. I calculate from 5k RPM, because the lower the RPM, the longer the pipe must be.
At 5k RPM, there are 2500 exhaust pulses per minute, or ~41 pulses per second coming out of the exhaust.
That means on one full pulse, the gas travels ~8.5 meters ( or ~ 25ft) in 1/41th a second.
You will want the exhaust valves to open at the moment a negative pulse is about to form (a sub pressure, or vacuum), so generally that means that the optimal pipe would be halved the result above, or ~4.25meter (~12ft) for a 4 stroke.
That's pretty insane! If that's true, it means that most 4 strokes should have a 12ft pipe behind them.
I guess I'm missing something here?
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Post by terrilee on Mar 15, 2013 18:16:21 GMT -5
yea that seems to be a long pipe but hey at least your trying to use your brains. you dont make it work harder than its used to ya just lose it, so make it work
i 'member in college i talked well. thought analytically, etc etc now i just worry about cat food
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Post by JR on Mar 15, 2013 18:44:49 GMT -5
What was it you were smoking in that pipe?
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Post by terrilee on Mar 15, 2013 18:53:28 GMT -5
is he using a one hit bong?
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Post by prodigit on Mar 15, 2013 21:10:57 GMT -5
Duh! Found my error! I was calculating the air exits at the speed of sound, which it does perhaps, but after that it significantly decreases speed, depending on the exhaust pipe diameter. I basically was calculating the pulses at the speed of sound, instead of at the speed air moves. And air can move very slow too. Moving air, and sound are 2 totally different beasts! Congratulate me, because this topic is a complete and utter failure!
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Post by JR on Mar 15, 2013 21:25:22 GMT -5
Congrats, i wondered what the speed of sound had to do with it.
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Post by prodigit on Mar 15, 2013 23:33:41 GMT -5
Well, it kept me busy, thinking for 30 minutes. Besides the exhaust pipe length is depending on the width of the exhaust gas pulses. A slower running engine will have wider pulses. A bigger cc gives more exhaust gasses (which could lead to wider pulses, but also faster moving air), increased compression gives faster moving or increased exhaust air speeds. Man, this topic is way above my head...
I can not even begin to fathom the simplest of simplest calculation, on how long an exhaust pipe should be considering all the variables at work here...
I guess choosing the right pipe had little to do with math, and most by trial and error; and performance measuring?...
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Post by JR on Mar 16, 2013 0:05:06 GMT -5
I am sure there are calculations out there. I am also sure that you need the right amount of back pressure, but need no more than that. Most people go with a short exhaust and minimal back pressure in the muffler.
The longer the pipe the more resistance it has.
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Post by justbuggin2 on Mar 16, 2013 0:21:13 GMT -5
the way to figure this out would be to find the amount of air the piston will displace for each stroke of the crank and i think you will need the exhaust to have a little more volume than then cylinder will hold so as each exhaust stoke will pull a little on the next stroke
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Post by alleyoop on Mar 16, 2013 0:36:29 GMT -5
A longer a pipe helps with more low end torque. Alleyoop
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Post by JR on Mar 16, 2013 0:39:27 GMT -5
I know that somebody will not agree with me.
The exhaust is not that critical to be that concerned about. Sure if you have a restrictive system it can decrease your power, most an be modified to relieve that back pressure. The exception is for two strokes.
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Post by prodigit on Mar 16, 2013 1:04:53 GMT -5
I know that the bigger the pipe, the shorter it can be. The thinner the pipe, the longer the pipe needs to be. The thinner the pipe, the faster the gas exits the exhaust system; which is good for fuel mileage; until a certain point where the pipe becomes too thin, and back pressure increases to such extends that the engine will no longer run efficiently.
Faster moving exhaust gasses, also help improve fuel efficiency, as they create a vacuum in the pipe that allows more of the gasses to be sucked out of the cylinder, than without the vacuum.
When an engine is running at WOT, the volume of the exhaust gasses is a lot larger, than when it's idling. I presume that's one of the many reasons why on an HP/RPM curve you can see the HP decrease at the end of the spectrum.
By selecting the right pipe, one can optimize the power curve ~5000-6500RPM, where it's most needed (on a 50cc 4 stroke engine).
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