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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 26, 2013 17:54:11 GMT -5
If that is the engine in your bike, it is diffidently NOT a honda clone, at least not a GY6 250 water pumper anyway. They cylinder is upright so it's not the yamaha clone either. The Honda Helix 250 is legendary for reliability the 250cc chinese clones are hit and miss... Now the air cooled GY6's are pretty bomb proof. I'm constantly impressed by how much punishment they take. it's all in the QC and metallurgy and machining. I do know that Kymco has a really good reputation for building excellent bikes and I really think you have a winner with what you bought. The video doesn't show the cylinder well. The cylinder is horizontal like the Chinese GY6 150. In fact, the engine looks a little like the GY6 150, but without the cooling fan and shroud. The spark plug is on the opposite side from the 150 though, on the LEFT side of the head (car "driver's side"). The carb/intake system is similar to the GY6 150, but EVERYTHING is SO much more "heavy-duty". The throttle has double-cable (pull-pull) connections rather than the single-cable (pull on a bell-crank) setup. The air-filter is doggone near "aircraft-quality". All sorts of major molded parts, with stainless screws and bolts threading into actual threaded stainless fittings. The entire engine-bay with genuine fuse-box, shielded wiring, super-thick castings, steel-gussets welded to frame members, etc. is FAR more reminiscent of a high-quality automobile (or commercial-duty truck... LOL) than a motorcycle or scooter. Even the obviously original vacuum hoses and fuel lines which look identical to the Chinese ones, are still soft and pliable with no signs whatsoever of cracks or splits where spring-clamps pinch them. When I see THAT level of quality buried deep where you can't see, it makes me think the rest of the vehicle is probably well-made too. "under the hood" It's more "engineered" than even my 1995 Honda Accord car! THAT was a MAJOR surprise to me after the comparative rat's-nest of shoddy wires, and sheet-metal screws through off-center plastic holes in the old China 150. After all, Taiwan IS technically part of China now, but you can't tell by their workmanship.I'll never bash Chinese scoots. They offer a TREMENDOUS value for the money, and I enjoyed mine a LOT! But I can't help seeing the quality differences in the Taiwanese construction, from the 7-year-old, "well-cooked" yet NOT broken snap-plugs on wires that can STILL be plugged and unplugged repeatedly WITHOUT damage, to the extra welded (good welds, too) frame gussets (NO frame-shimmy here) threaded stainless fixtures, fitted washers, clamps,and so-on and so-on. That perceived quality is one reason I was willing to pay the price of a new Chinese 250 for this one with 7 years and 13,000 miles on the clock. That doesn't sound smart, but seeing the way it's made, I think it may still be a good move. Only time will tell.It did make me feel a little better when the dealer showed me some customers' Kymco sun-baked and road-rashed scoots with 40,000+ miles on them and still running fine. According to him, it's common for the water-cooled Kymco and SYM scoots to go way past 50K miles with only battery, tires, clutch, belt, muffler, brake-pads and maybe a water-pump replacement. It's only recently that the early ones have been around long enough to find out how many miles they actually WILL run... LOL!
It also made me a tad more comfortable to learn that Kymco made engines for Honda. With their rep for stellar quality, I can't imagine Honda contracting ANYONE to make engines for THEIR scoots unless they figured they were up to the task.Again, only time will tell. It appears the original owner of this one took at least moderate care of it. So I'm hoping she'll reward me with many trouble-free miles. I'll surely post any good, or bad experiences for all to see. It's important to note that in my search for a flat-floor 250, I settled on the Kymco because it was one of the few available outside of Italian scoots. In the SAME $1,500 to $2,500 price range, I found PLENTY of Italian, and swell Japanese scoots including Burgman, Reflex, Morphous, Helix, Silver Eagle and such, as well as Kymco "Exicting" 250 and 500cc. If you like a "maxi" with big wheels, and don't mind the floor "hump" your used, "under 3-grand" choices from Japan, Taiwan and Italy are nearly limitless!I was limited because I wanted small-wheel "mousey" instead of "maxi"... LOL! So far, it looks like I got a "Minnie Mouse" that will still keep up with "Mighty Mouse" on the asphalt when I twist her ear... Hmmm... Not bad! Ride safe, ride "affordable"...Leo in Texas |
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Post by SylvreKat on Oct 26, 2013 22:08:47 GMT -5
Leo, I told you, leave her poor ears alone! At least while you're driving!
>'Kat
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 27, 2013 0:20:31 GMT -5
Hey, blow in her ear and she'll follow you anywhere... LOL!
Leo
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Post by urbanmadness on Oct 27, 2013 11:31:37 GMT -5
It could be the yamaha clone then (it's a better clone). The Yamaha, the cylinder lays down like the air cooled gy6.
I hear ya, on buying a used, higher quality bike. It's money well spent! And yes, for what you get, most of the chinese bikes are good value for money.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 28, 2013 6:44:24 GMT -5
It could be the yamaha clone then (it's a better clone). The Yamaha, the cylinder lays down like the air cooled gy6. I hear ya, on buying a used, higher quality bike. It's money well spent! And yes, for what you get, most of the chinese bikes are good value for money. Judging by the posts in the 250cc section here, the larger-displacement, water-cooled ones may be slightly better too. I really did enjoy my Xingyue 150, but it did keep me awfully busy fixing it. And it got babied and pampered with meticulous maintenance. In all fairness though, as of last season, I think I really got all the bugs worked out and was enjoying riding, rather than wrenching. But... the changes in local surface streets simply raised the necessary "survival" speed to at least 20 mph faster than a 150 is going to run. Hence, the up-sizing! At least I'm confident that SOMEBODY local will be getting as good a Chinese 150 as can be found. I'm just getting too arthritic to do much more than general maintenance, and am hoping the Kymco will a little more like the proverbial "grocery-getter" car... Gas it up, change the oil regularly and drive, drive, DRIVE...Kat and I have been joking a lot about the Kymco "mouse-ear" mirrors... LOL! Seriously, for visibility, they ARE the best mirrors I've encountered on any motorcycle, and they are REALLY handy when folding them allows easier maneuvering when I park it between my old cars. HOWEVER... and THIS is interesting... The manual touts the electric-folding mirrors "for safer lane-splitting"... Hmmm...If I'm ever tempted to blast between cars so close together that I have to fold the mirrors, I'll consider giving up 2-wheel transportation! Those mirrors only stick out a few inches wider than my knees. Potential "OUCH"! Besides, that kind of riding is far more suited to the crotch-rocket suicide-posses out there, than to old geezers heading down the freeway with a bag of kitty-litter. Pretty dangerous activity for the "factory" to endorse (at least in my humble opinion)...Leo in Texas |
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Post by spandi on Oct 28, 2013 7:01:21 GMT -5
Yep, Chinese stuff is getting better (still a ways to go) but getting there. I was talking to a woman at a local grocery store on a Lance she's had for three years with just regular maintenance and tune-ups. I'm pretty sure it's a Znen built model (as this was before Lance switched suppliers to SYM) The Honda shop in Redding sells them along with the higher priced Honda line, even so it's a sharp looking little machine.
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Post by rockynv on Oct 28, 2013 11:52:28 GMT -5
I had the 2008 Lance Vintage and the quality issues were brutal which is one reason Lance got rid of Znen. Quality can be on a pendulam swinging to both extremes as makers pass their capacity model and then end of slapping product together to meet the deadlines.
Consistant quality is what they need to pursue and not just occasional spikes to above just good with abysmal drops to below unacceptible.
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Post by urbanmadness on Oct 28, 2013 19:29:59 GMT -5
I'm actually ok with the quality of my znen. It's a 150 and it's been pretty bomb proof as of now. it's a 2008. The 2008 Shanke in the group, it's 150de.... other then the body panels and wiring being kinda flakey, has been ok too. Now the quality of a 80cc gas bike kit or should I say, lack of quality.... is something to behold! I have one of those as well, and it's well..... let's just say the studs and bolts that come in those kits are pretty bad....
Of all the bikes I've worked on so far, however, the 500cc Aprilla and the 250 ninja make these Chinese scoots look like toys. Very high quality bikes. On the Ninja.... Very easy to get the plastic off and it actually fits together with no pounding or flexing when you put it back together.... Very nice, very awesome. The Aprilla.... you just never have to take the plastics off.... and it's a good thing to, cause I haven't figured it out yet. The April, Piaggio and Ninja, just run.... and never miss a beat.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 28, 2013 19:40:56 GMT -5
I had the 2008 Lance Vintage and the quality issues were brutal which is one reason Lance got rid of Znen. Quality can be on a pendulam swinging to both extremes as makers pass their capacity modle and then end of slapping product together to meet the deadlines. Consistant quality is what they need to pursue and not just occasional spikes to above just good with abysmal drops to below unacceptible.
You're right on the money there!Even the dealership where I got my old Kymco echoes that sentiment. He used to sell new Chinese scoots, and many were fine "right out of the box" but enough were EXTREMELY poor, that warranty issues killed any profit made from the good ones. For the younger (stronger, friskier than me... LOL!) rider, a new Chinese scoot is probably a great idea. (Or, a used, non-running one can be a SUPER buy for the ambitious wrencher).
For those like me, looking for a little more "high-end" used scoot, I must admit I was overwhelmed by the number of absolutely GEORGEOUS used Vespas out there at prices comparable with similar displacement used Taiwanese brands. Vespas and Piaggios have the rep for being THE fastest, nicest and most prestigious scooters cc for cc. If ANY 150 has a chance of running the freeway, the Vespa is it... My searching showed they most definitely ARE out there, well-maintained and at bargain prices. I went with the Kymco mostly out of convenience (able to ride my Chinese trade-in to the dealer and ride the Kymco home...) L-A-Z-Y for sure, but it was just the type of scoot I really wanted, at a fair price, and I have a B&M dealer 10 minutes away, to visit for complaints, spare parts or a cup of coffee... He had several 250cc used Chinese scoots on the lot for "giveaway" prices, and they drove OK. But NO way was he going to recommend them. He'd SELL you one, but, it was "buy it and never come back"... LOLOLOL... Again though, these might just be a "wrencher's dream". One thing you have to give the Chinese though; whether good, bad or indifferent, their scoots always LOOK great! Nobody including the Italians does lacquer like the Chinese!Ride what you can afford, and what you can repair...  Leo (ridin' that Taiwan Panda) in Texas |
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Post by urbanmadness on Oct 28, 2013 20:05:28 GMT -5
Oh yeah, the Chinese do paint some pretty bikes.... And the lines.... I think they have it hands down over Piaggio and Aprilla, Honda and the rest. The Chinese do make some pretty bikes. Finish is usually top notch, it's the fit, that's plagues them.
I've seen a Zongshen 250gs that was very pretty... (motorcycle)... and how I want it, but the owner isn't ready to part with it just yet. He don't ride it... it has 14 miles on it.... , he said he can't even ride a bike. doubt he has a helmet even but the bike is very very pretty. I'm sure getting parts for it wouldn't be very pretty tho..... and for as long as it has sat now, I know the carb is gonna need to be rebuilt. A year ago it had bad gas.... so bad it wouldn't start and it looked like koolaid... yup staybill only works if you read the directions. I'd take a chance on it... but only for like 300 bucks or so.
I have not had to work on a Taiwanese bike yet.... From what I've read tho, the kymco's are very good. My Chinese scooter dealer only does the 150gy6's now on scooters. He agrees with me that the 250 clones have been just a complete nightmare. The 250's quads are much better in quality so he sells them, but not the scoots. He also has a Chinese motard that looks interesting as well, but I can't get my leg over it.... but for 3500 out the door for a 250 air cooled thumper (suziki clone) it looks very solid and good value for money. Even the controls feel good on it.
sorry if I'm off topic.... If I was in the market for a big scoot, I'd check Kymco for sure.
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Post by spandi on Oct 28, 2013 22:30:28 GMT -5
You would think the Chinese would put MORE effort into making sure the 250's were the BEST of the lineup, rather than the other way around. After all, they cost the most and because they can go at much higher speeds, need to be put together with even more care along with better quality parts and fit.
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Post by rockynv on Oct 29, 2013 3:47:08 GMT -5
The Chinese are experiencing their growing pains but unlike the Japanese they have not matured enough to find a consistant good balance yet.
The collaborations with Yamaha and Piaggio show that there is hope with mentoring but they still require constant supervision if they are to maintain a consistant product.
They need to get a handle on training and accredation of staff first and need to stop just putting a sticky note on a persons pocket so that no longer is a person one day a farmer or field worker and the next a mechanical technition assembling bikes in a factory just because they repurposed them and relocated a body without any real training.
We have the same problem with certain companies in India too. They just throw some poor kid under the bus and put them into a technical position by putting a new label on them and its then swim or sink as they learn the new job from the school of hard knocks which is totally unfair to the person. You really feel bad for them but then have to temper how much time you take away from fulfilling your responsibilities to your own boss the help these poor kids get up to speed. In the meantime they make a lot of mistakes that are sometimes quite costly.
The trend is to reduce any job to an SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) so that any idiot can perform it however having people reduced to idiots assembling motor vehicles or performing technical tasks is not that great a thing to do.
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Post by SylvreKat on Oct 29, 2013 5:56:06 GMT -5
Kat and I have been joking a lot about the Kymco "mouse-ear" mirrors... LOL! Seriously, for visibility, they ARE the best mirrors I've encountered on any motorcycle, and they are REALLY handy when folding them allows easier maneuvering when I park it between my old cars. HOWEVER... and THIS is interesting... The manual touts the electric-folding mirrors "for safer lane-splitting"... Hmmm...If I'm ever tempted to blast between cars so close together that I have to fold the mirrors, I'll consider giving up 2-wheel transportation! Those mirrors only stick out a few inches wider than my knees. Potential "OUCH"! Besides, that kind of riding is far more suited to the crotch-rocket suicide-posses out there, than to old geezers heading down the freeway with a bag of kitty-litter. Pretty dangerous activity for the "factory" to endorse (at least in my humble opinion)...Leo in Texas Are you saying you've got a button you press and the ear-mirrors fold in? While you're driving? That doesn't sound safe! As for "safer lane-splitting" I think it's 'cause the mirrors are sometimes the same height as cars' side mirrors. Not that I'd ever be tempted either! Say, can you take and post a picture sitting on Minnie? I'd like to see the visibility those ears provide. >'Kat |
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 29, 2013 12:55:07 GMT -5
Kat and I have been joking a lot about the Kymco "mouse-ear" mirrors... LOL! Seriously, for visibility, they ARE the best mirrors I've encountered on any motorcycle, and they are REALLY handy when folding them allows easier maneuvering when I park it between my old cars. HOWEVER... and THIS is interesting... The manual touts the electric-folding mirrors "for safer lane-splitting"... Hmmm...If I'm ever tempted to blast between cars so close together that I have to fold the mirrors, I'll consider giving up 2-wheel transportation! Those mirrors only stick out a few inches wider than my knees. Potential "OUCH"! Besides, that kind of riding is far more suited to the crotch-rocket suicide-posses out there, than to old geezers heading down the freeway with a bag of kitty-litter. Pretty dangerous activity for the "factory" to endorse (at least in my humble opinion)...Leo in Texas Are you saying you've got a button you press and the ear-mirrors fold in? While you're driving? That doesn't sound safe! As for "safer lane-splitting" I think it's 'cause the mirrors are sometimes the same height as cars' side mirrors. Not that I'd ever be tempted either! Say, can you take and post a picture sitting on Minnie? I'd like to see the visibility those ears provide. >'Kat
Yup... Just push the yellow rocker-switch and the mirrors fold back like Mickey's ears in a hurricane. I guess folding them while riding wouldn't be all that dangerous, you'd just lose your rear-view momentarily... I'll take a picture from the driver's seat when I can. Right now, I have the seat off to wire up full lighting for a new L-A-R-G-E trunk I just got. I'm a fanatic about having tail-lights, brake-lights and turn signals bright and clear, right up in car drivers' faces at eye-level. It REALLY is a life-saver! We're under some really bad weather for the next week or so and when I get back to riding I'll see if I can get an accurate picture of the views in the mirrors. They're VERY different from any bike's mirrors I've ever encountered, but great! They're down low, about knee-level. They're BIG and the outside third of the mirrors is "wide-angle" to show much more area. They are also UV tinted to cut glare in the sun, but plenty clear at night. They seem to have been a major feature of the Grand Vista when introduced in 2005, but riders didn't take much notice. In any case, I really like them. (The mirrors themselves are also easily adjusted while riding, within their retracting modules just by manually pushing the edges.) A good feature for sure! Some of the most innovative features on vehicles (not just 2-wheelers) end up simply being overlooked and forgotten. Too bad!Ride safe! Leo |
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Post by spandi on Oct 29, 2013 15:44:03 GMT -5
They DO look like mouse ears don't they?  ....and folded  |
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