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Post by brandjur on Jun 1, 2013 14:27:07 GMT -5
Hi, So I installed the 2nd bbk in the last month on 139QMB. It is identical to what I did before. NCY 47mm, Uni filter, #  main jet, new fuel filter, NGK spark plug. I also changed fuel lines, vacuum lines, and battery. I am running out of ideas to try to trouble shoot. The 1st one I did was on a 2012 TPGS-811 and I have a used 2009 MC-17. Same body style. 1st install is running strong and fast. History with this MC-17 is I bought it used non-running. I cleaned up the carb, used speaker wire, blew out all holes with air compressor, changed fuel filter, changed spark plug to a spare one I had, drained old gas, and added new gas. Started right up and I rode it around the block. I needed more power for the city streets here and ordered a bbk. I installed it, I even marked the timing chain to the cam sprocket with a sharpie so I re-install it in exactly the same place. Now here is my problemThe scooter starts and idles perfectly. I rode it around and it does a vraap, burp or brrruup when I wot or almost wot. 1. Thought I might be lean so I raised the needle on the carb. It got worse where half throttle it would vraap or burp. 2. So I leaned it out with the needle, it got better, but still would do it in upper rpms. 3. Checked the plug and it looked kinda dark. 4. Switched # to #  I had around. Did the same thing. Raised the needle and it vraap. Leaned out the needle, and it did it again. 5. Check all connections and grounds, where I even sanded the ground connections to the case and frame. Used Dialectric grease. I double checked/tightened the coil, wire, plug connections. 6. Checked I didn't over oil Uni filter, I didn't. I used the spray oil and I even blotched the filter with shop towels to make sure it wasn't too saturated. So, I am guessing: 1. Fuel not atomizing well enough - clean carb again or get new carb 2. Spark not good. Maybe a bad CDI? Found out the hard way it was DC even though it has 2 wires etc. after installing and ruining an NCY CDI.  I have an Orange DC CDI coming in the mail today. 3. Timing might be off from factory. I noticed the stator timing doesn't settle on the T, it settles on the F. When on F, the cam was aligned correctly. Again, I also marked the chain to the cam sprocket. I installed this exactly the same way I did the previous one and that one is running strong and fast. 4. Exhaust has clogged or rusted blocking flow I don't want to start buying extra parts. Any ideas? I do have the proper tools as I was an auto tech years ago, but I don't have the same energy or muscle recovery as I did years ago. So, I am almost to a point where I am going to take the engine apart to inspect, but don't want to do that. Thank you for the help. |
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Post by indymoped on Jun 1, 2013 15:31:33 GMT -5
You need a lower size jet. I'm surprised yours did this with an # jet. Mine was at a #105 jet when it started to do this badly. Once I went back down to a #98 it stopped. The #102 would do it when the engine was cold but not when it was hot. |
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Post by brandjur on Jun 1, 2013 22:53:41 GMT -5
So, I received my DC CDI today. Connected it and it doesn't start. So far, it only starts with the original CDI. I tried a DC orange CDI, orange NCY AC CDI, and a stock AC CDI from the other 2012 scooter. Here is a pic of the stock CDI and wiring. I thought it was AC, but then it could be DC as this CDI is larger than the other stock AC unit I have. Attachments:
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Post by devo344a on Jun 2, 2013 8:45:05 GMT -5
The way to tell if you have a ac or dc is turn your ignition switch on and look at the headlight if its on its DC if not its AC
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Post by brandjur on Jun 2, 2013 10:36:08 GMT -5
The way to tell if you have a ac or dc is turn your ignition switch on and look at the headlight if its on its DC if not its AC I did that. Light is not on, but I noticed the gas gauge turns on (shows gas level). I did the homework, from the headlight, to seeing if there is power to the CDI, to the size of the box, to swapping with both AC and DC CDIs, and also looking at the wires. This has me completely baffled. I went here www.scrappydogscooters.com/Tech_Talk_with_Mo_.html and also looked at the wiring diagram. Mine follows the AC wiring diagram, but I have 2 green wires in the 4 plug. Another thought is if the factory timing was off at the camshaft. So, when either AC or DC CDI tries to start, if they are advanced on start-up, it won't fire up the engine. The DC CDI is from Scrappydog and the AC CDI is an AC NCY unit from Enviromoto. I am still baffled... |
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Post by tvnacman on Jun 2, 2013 18:37:23 GMT -5
Have you done a compression test ? I would recheck the valves . Did you tork the head ?
John
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Post by JR on Jun 2, 2013 20:08:55 GMT -5
The way to tell if you have a ac or dc is turn your ignition switch on and look at the headlight if its on its DC if not its AC What the head lights do or don't do has nothing to do with what the CDI is as far as AC or DC. There are scooters that have AC type CDI's with a DC type charging system that the headlights come on with a switch and the scooter not running or with it running, example is scooters with 11 or 12 coil stators. His picture shows a AC type CDI simple as that. Headlights on a scooter run either off of the AC side of the R/R or directly from the DC battery source again the has nothing to do with telling you what type CDI it is. Also the it's a bigger CDI makes it a  ?? type CDI isn't always the norm but the voltage feed to the CDI is determined by one factor and it's is the voltage supply feed. On his CDI pictured the red/black wire is AC from the stator and can be checked with a meter to verify this with the engine turning over. DC type CDI's will have a DC power feed from the battery through the ignition with the key turned on usually on Chinese scooters it's a black wire. The correct way to determine the type of CDI on your scooter is finding out the supply power voltage to it either AC with the scooter engine turning over or DC with the key on. Also with the exception of one scooter I've found a Malaguti I have never seen a DC type CDI on a 50cc scooter. JR |
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Post by brandjur on Jun 2, 2013 21:11:31 GMT -5
Hi John,
I opened the valve cover up and the camshaft was off by a tooth. I also re-did the valves. It was too cold here to take her for a ride, so I will see how she performs tomorrow.
JR,
I agree with you. I saw the wiring and was baffled because I contacted Jeremy at Enviromoto saying that my NCY AC CDI could be defective (I purchased it from him). He said if it isn't working, then it is DC. He also said he won't take back any electronics if it was used. I was trying to reason with him that I didn't want a refund, but a working replacement. He convinced me I had a DC even though I showed him the wiring followed the AC diagram and there was a lack of voltage/power to the CDI red/black wire when the key was turned (actually sent him a video checking the power.
One thing I did do is check the spark with both types of CDIs. The NCY AC one was showing a lot of spark while the DC one from Scrappydog barely sparked. However, the NCY AC CDI still couldn't start the engine. I had to use the original CDI again.
I will report tomorrow with updates.
I really do appreciate all the help.
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Post by JR on Jun 3, 2013 11:34:10 GMT -5
Don't know what the deal is with Jeremy and I'll not get in between you two and the issue. But I will say that if the CDI (and I'm sure it's yours) is indeed the picture you sent him then point blank it's AC. I'm surprised the DC one even sparked at all but again the one in the picture is AC.
Frankly I'm surprised anyone would say a 50cc CDI is DC? If they are putting DC type CDI's on standard Chinese 50cc scooters then they don't want the luxury of being able to kick start it with a dead or no battery.
Want to prove it to even yourself that it is AC? Unhook the battery and see if it'll kick start? To make it easier start it with the electric start first and then unhook the battery with it running and watch it keep running. DC type CDI's MUST have a fully charged battery to run, unhook the battery and it'll die, will not start with a battery voltage lower than 10Vdc and if it is DC then it'll not have a kick starter with the exception of a few scooters I know one being the CfMoto E-Charm 150cc. It is DC and has a kick starter. Don't know of a 50cc out there that is the same? If so then let me know.
JR
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Post by sailracer on Jun 3, 2013 11:48:17 GMT -5
On the plug with 2 wires in it, trace them. an ac cdi should have only one wire.I ran into this on my new jonway. I bought an unlimited cdi, and it would not fire. Anyway, see if one of those wires goes to the cover under where the clutch is, if so disconnect it, and try the ac cdi again.Some scooters use this as a restrictor. There's a sensor on the clutch. Dc uses 6 wires, and ac uses 5 (so i'm told, but some ac use 6 wires the 6th is the restrictor and an aftermarket cdi will not work with this wire connected
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Post by brandjur on Jun 3, 2013 12:53:01 GMT -5
Update: So the 1 tooth off of the camshaft did the trick of the vrraap. It's all gone and runs strong with the stock CDI. I should have never trusted factory or the previous owner with marking the chain and sprocket with a sharpie to align it back. I should have just trusted the 3 holes and T mark. Sailracer, From what I have researched, the DC ones can have 1 wire on the 2 pin plug. The AC ones could have 3 wires on the 4 pin plug. Mine has 4 wires on the 4 pin plug with a 2nd green one. Maybe this could be a restrictor. Here is the pic of the A/C wiring diagram. However, mine has another green wire on the 4 pin plug. I will disconnect that one to see if it starts.  Thanks everyone for the feedback. Sometimes it is a simple over look and other times, it takes experience from others. I will give an update again after disconnecting the extra green wire on the 4 pin plug. |
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Post by brandjur on Jun 3, 2013 13:35:59 GMT -5
So, I unhooked each of the green wire pins on the 4 pin plug one at a time. Since green is a ground I didn't want to remove both at the same time. Well, it started right up with the stock CDI, but it didn't start at all with the NCY CDI. What is weird is I have a stock AC CDI from another scooter (replaced with an NCY CDI) and it doesn't start with that either.
I did try the Scrappydog DC CDI for good measure and it didn't start.
My quest continues....
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Post by JR on Jun 3, 2013 16:09:34 GMT -5
I'll help you end this quest, again this is a AC type CDI plain and simple. The two green wires are both grounds. All AC type CDI's have two ground points. In your diagram above you see a vacant pin on the 4-plug of the CDI. it is an accessory ground. Some scooters run the ground from this pin to the coil, some simply ground the CDI twice. A CDI comes this way because it actually has two separate functions.
If you want to check the ground pins with the two green wires unplug one and then ohm the vacant pin to ground and vice versa. The NCY CDI is either DC or no good simple as that no wiring mystery or question as to what your stock CDI is and what works on this scooter.
This CDI isn't restricted and it's a common type CDI and will work on any 6 or 8 pole stator engine with the AC feed even a 150cc. If you want a performance CDI then order a AC type. You can disconnect the second green wire and it'll not make any difference at all however if you plug it into a DC type CDI you're grounding out the CDI and also the red/black wire is AC and the DC type CDI will not recieve the proper amount or kind of voltage.
All this about how many wires to each plug designates what kind it is all overblown and in many cases not correct, just an educated guess. Want to quit guessing do the tests I mentioned, a volt meter will not steer you wrong.
On the one wire on one plug making it DC? I can show you 4 different scooters that have a DC type CDI with two wires on the two plug. Reason? The second wire is a engine kill wire just like on the AC type CDI. Why would that be? Because they wanted you to be able to kill the engine by two means, one by cutting the DC power when turning the key off and two by the emergency kill switch on the handle bars.
My 250B is a DC type CDI and has 5 wires just like a AC type CDI. Also you will never have a DC type CDI on a single phase stator and again the only 3-phase stator I know out there is a Malaguti 50cc. Your scooter is a single phase stator and the wire colors going to the R/R from the stator will be
White
Yellow
Green
and the R/R will have one more wire that goes to the battery = Red.
The other two wires from the Stator are single bullet connector wires and the color varies but typically they are
Blue/white or blue/yellow = pulse signal wire to CDI
Red/black = AC feed to CDI.
It's as simple as that guys.
JR
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Post by sailracer on Jun 3, 2013 16:34:49 GMT -5
not neccesarily, I bought a new jonway YY50QT30,It was restricted to 35 MPH. and has an AC cdi. I bought an unrestricted cdi, installed it, and nothing, I put in the cdi from my baja sc50, and nothing, AS you said, A bad cdi. so I tried another new one. Meantime, I traced all the wires, and found that one wire from the TWO wire plug went to a sensor on the clutch (the restrictor) I disconnected it and it works great. However it will not work with an aftermarket cdi. Makes no sense. I have no idea what jonway did there.
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Post by brandjur on Jun 3, 2013 16:51:31 GMT -5
Hi JR, I am not questioning you at all. I agree with you.  I appreciate your feedback and help. I already did the battery test and the engine keeps on running while disconnecting the battery. The problem I have now is I do have an NCY performance AC CDI as well as an AC CDI from a newer 2012 Peace scooter 50cc TPGS-811. Mine is a 2009 MC-17 50cc. The AC CDIs from NCY and from the Peace scooter does not start the engine. Only my original CDI starts the engine. The only reasons I mentioned the DC is because Jeremy at Enviromoto said the NCY CDI was not defective and that I have a DC CDI. So, I went and purchased a DC CDI, against my own belief. So, unfortunately the saga does continue as I already have 2 other AC CDIs (see pic) and the engine doesn't start with them plugged in. When I switch back to the original CDI after trying the 2 other AC CDIs, the original CDI fires the engine right up on the 2nd turnover. Attachments:
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main jet, new fuel filter, NGK spark plug. I also changed fuel lines, vacuum lines, and battery. I am running out of ideas to try to trouble shoot.
I had around. Did the same thing. Raised the needle and it vraap. Leaned out the needle, and it did it again.
I have an Orange DC CDI coming in the mail today.
jet
