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Post by onewheeldrive on Apr 30, 2013 18:21:29 GMT -5
72cc listed as 80cc. 80cc listed as 100cc.
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Post by woowilly on Apr 30, 2013 19:32:08 GMT -5
CC listed could be right with a stroker crank.
It could just be unscrupulous marketing.
Also in some countries, advertised CC is piston swept area CC plus combustion chamber CC.
In the U.S. advertised CC normally is piston swept area CC only.
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Post by carasdad on Apr 30, 2013 20:24:57 GMT -5
[replyingto=onewheeldrive]onewheeldrive[/replyingto]Pretty much has always been that way. Japan started it in the 50's with their first motorcycles to come across the pond....the 150 Honda dream...which was actually 146cc. They just round up to make it seem more I guess? My Suzuki RM250 is stamped 247cm3 on the cylinder...and called a 250. But even if it was true 250 vice 247..That power house 2T ....I would never know the difference... Below is a very good article and timeline on Honda...the company that started all the high performance bikes. Of course William Harley and Arthur Davidson began it all in 1901 with their 116cc powered bicycle..in 1903 their second bike was 405cc and the flywheel alone weighed 28lbs!!They were looking for pure power and torque..while across the pond Honda was building bicycles until 1949 when they built their first motorcycle....the 98cc Dream. In 1949 when Honda entered the motorcycle market...they were into high speed performance and car racing....vice power and stump pulling torque. Soichiro Honda was tired of all the 2 stroke noise and exhaust and began designing 4 stroke motorcycles and in 1951 produced the 146cc Dream. Which a few sold in the U.S. But Honda entered another market as well producing 50cc 2 stroke bolt on bicycle motors. So bottom line is...as far back as the history of motorcycles..mopeds and scooters go.....50..80..100 125..250 etc have never been their true displacement..Just a nice even number given to show what displacement class they were in.  www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/history-honda-motorcycle.htmlAttachments:
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Post by onewheeldrive on Apr 30, 2013 23:14:15 GMT -5
I can see how they would use round numbers for scooters/bikes that are bone stock and completely assembled. When talking about upgrades it seems a little ridiculous though, IMO. Especially for the 50cc scooter category. Listing an 80cc as 100cc is quite the roundup. It's also misleading to people that don't know better. 20cc "extra" is a huge difference in these smaller engine scoots.
It reminds me of the Buy One Get One free gimmick that Phantom fireworks has. They charge you twice as much as the guy down the road, but hey you get one "free". People really think they are getting such a great deal.
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Post by skuttadawg on May 1, 2013 0:33:00 GMT -5
Yes that have rounded up for years as a marketing scam you could say . A 50mm BBK is 82cc
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Post by carasdad on May 1, 2013 7:37:42 GMT -5
I can see how they would use round numbers for scooters/bikes that are bone stock and completely assembled. When talking about upgrades it seems a little ridiculous though, IMO. Especially for the 50cc scooter category. Listing an 80cc as 100cc is quite the roundup. It's also misleading to people that don't know better. 20cc "extra" is a huge difference in these smaller engine scoots. It reminds me of the Buy One Get One free gimmick that Phantom fireworks has. They charge you twice as much as the guy down the road, but hey you get one "free". People really think they are getting such a great deal. LMAO! at the Phantom fireworks dude... Up until last year nearly all fireworks were illegal in Michigan..basically if you could light it with a match or cigarette lighter....it was illegal to sell. So we would drive 45 miles to the Indiana border....and yes..on my 50cc scooter with luggage box. The first 3 shops..the second you hit the border...was Phantom Fireworks...with ridiculous prices and gimmicks. 'Buy one get one free' is he nuts? This is America..the only thing free is...is....hmm..is..ok we gotta come back to that..can't think of anything right now. Anyway if you drove another mile into Indiana TNT fireworks had a store and you could buy 2 items cheaper than the 1st places 'buy one get one free' It was a tourist trap for those of us border crossers.  As for scoot..I agree my Suzuki RM250 being 247..but called a 250 is acceptable. But 9 years ago when I bought my first Gy6 50cc's...80 Big Bore Kit....I was like kewl..30cc's more! Of course back then since they were new to the market or sumpin...they cost close to $150.00 just for a cylinder and piston kit!  One day while doing the math trying to figure a way for more power..bore and stroke calculated out to 72cc. I was like huh? The original gy6 50cc that we use was originally designed as a 72cc as they are allowed in Asian and a several other countries..so I just paid $150.00 for 22cc more and what they get for free. Each season my RM250 required an overbore as Motocross heats eat the top end quickly. So you start at 10 over..next is 20 over..then 30 over. With a $100.00 charge for the cylinder bore..and close to that for a Wiseco piston and ring set.  So my lil scoot was almost as expensive. 30 over puts ya above your class be it 125 or 250. Some folks went up to 60 over but that puts your stock 247cc well over that and if caught you were disqualified for the season...for running an engine above your class...and if you clock in a fast time...they do measure your bore! Where is this leading?...well a guy down the road did not know they made BBK kits for GY6 50's...so he had the cycle machine shop bore his 30 over when the piston..rings and cylinder wore.(cause he rides with a huge jet and NO airfilter) Low and behold I did not know Wiseco made piston kits for these things. Actually I think he said it was a Honda XR 50 or XR70 piston and rings.....30 over..Going this route it cost him $278.00 for his BBK rebuild...so I told him I sell 80 BBK's for $42.00 at my parts/repair shop..boy was he mad..  Doubt this helped ya any...but it was worth sharing.. ;D |
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Post by RapidJim on May 1, 2013 8:50:56 GMT -5
What woowilly and carsdad said is correct. I will try an explain.
Marketing has always rounded up, but normally not much. In the case of these big bore kits, the advertised cc. ie 100cc, would be correct if you also installed a stroker crank. Actually it would be the MAX displacement you could achieve with that size bore. Your better parts companies will make mention of actual displacement with a standard crank. You will see a company say something like: this is commonly called a 80cc kit, your true size is 72cc. Some will use the phrase, up to 80cc and most do give the bore size. Others say nothing at all about displacement or size and just leave the unknowing potential customer believing they will achieve the stated displacement. The thing is, there are a lot of people that don't read the full discription of the item they are buying and are disappointed.
Jim
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Post by onewheeldrive on May 1, 2013 22:32:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the explanations. Nice pic by the way.
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Post by onewheeldrive on May 1, 2013 22:53:14 GMT -5
LMAO! at the Phantom fireworks dude... Up until last year nearly all fireworks were illegal in Michigan..basically if you could light it with a match or cigarette lighter....it was illegal to sell. So we would drive 45 miles to the Indiana border....and yes..on my 50cc scooter with luggage box. The first 3 shops..the second you hit the border...was Phantom Fireworks...with ridiculous prices and gimmicks. 'Buy one get one free' is he nuts? This is America..the only thing free is...is....hmm..is..ok we gotta come back to that..can't think of anything right now. Anyway if you drove another mile into Indiana TNT fireworks had a store and you could buy 2 items cheaper than the 1st places 'buy one get one free' It was a tourist trap for those of us border crossers. As for scoot..I agree my Suzuki RM250 being 247..but called a 250 is acceptable. But 9 years ago when I bought my first Gy6 50cc's...80 Big Bore Kit....I was like kewl..30cc's more! Of course back then since they were new to the market or sumpin...they cost close to $150.00 just for a cylinder and piston kit! One day while doing the math trying to figure a way for more power..bore and stroke calculated out to 72cc. I was like huh? The original gy6 50cc that we use was originally designed as a 72cc as they are allowed in Asian and a several other countries..so I just paid $150.00 for 22cc more and what they get for free. Each season my RM250 required an overbore as Motocross heats eat the top end quickly. So you start at 10 over..next is 20 over..then 30 over. With a $100.00 charge for the cylinder bore..and close to that for a Wiseco piston and ring set. So my lil scoot was almost as expensive. 30 over puts ya above your class be it 125 or 250. Some folks went up to 60 over but that puts your stock 247cc well over that and if caught you were disqualified for the season...for running an engine above your class...and if you clock in a fast time...they do measure your bore! Where is this leading?...well a guy down the road did not know they made BBK kits for GY6 50's...so he had the cycle machine shop bore his 30 over when the piston..rings and cylinder wore.(cause he rides with a huge jet and NO airfilter) Low and behold I did not know Wiseco made piston kits for these things. Actually I think he said it was a Honda XR 50 or XR70 piston and rings.....30 over..Going this route it cost him $278.00 for his BBK rebuild...so I told him I sell 80 BBK's for $42.00 at my parts/repair shop..boy was he mad.. Doubt this helped ya any...but it was worth sharing.. ;D Ha. He could've had extra money to spare for other performance parts. I bet the look on his face was priceless. Good story! When I was a pre-teen(32 now), we'd go visit my grandparents and uncles around the Jackson, MI area---- around 4th of July. We'd always stop and pick up some fireworks along the way from Indiana. Lol. Actually they were illegal here too in Indiana until... maybe 8 years ago? When buying them, there was always that waiver to sign saying that'd you take them out of state within 7 or so days. Yeah right, no one ever did that(unless they were from Michigan..etc). Everywhere in Indiana you'd see "Out of State Fireworks" signs. Hahaha. Now the laws here are really relaxed since then. Anyways, thanks for the explanations everyone. |
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Post by carasdad on May 2, 2013 9:33:19 GMT -5
LMAO! at the Phantom fireworks dude... Up until last year nearly all fireworks were illegal in Michigan..basically if you could light it with a match or cigarette lighter....it was illegal to sell. So we would drive 45 miles to the Indiana border....and yes..on my 50cc scooter with luggage box. The first 3 shops..the second you hit the border...was Phantom Fireworks...with ridiculous prices and gimmicks. 'Buy one get one free' is he nuts? This is America..the only thing free is...is....hmm..is..ok we gotta come back to that..can't think of anything right now. Anyway if you drove another mile into Indiana TNT fireworks had a store and you could buy 2 items cheaper than the 1st places 'buy one get one free' It was a tourist trap for those of us border crossers. As for scoot..I agree my Suzuki RM250 being 247..but called a 250 is acceptable. But 9 years ago when I bought my first Gy6 50cc's...80 Big Bore Kit....I was like kewl..30cc's more! Of course back then since they were new to the market or sumpin...they cost close to $150.00 just for a cylinder and piston kit! One day while doing the math trying to figure a way for more power..bore and stroke calculated out to 72cc. I was like huh? The original gy6 50cc that we use was originally designed as a 72cc as they are allowed in Asian and a several other countries..so I just paid $150.00 for 22cc more and what they get for free. Each season my RM250 required an overbore as Motocross heats eat the top end quickly. So you start at 10 over..next is 20 over..then 30 over. With a $100.00 charge for the cylinder bore..and close to that for a Wiseco piston and ring set. So my lil scoot was almost as expensive. 30 over puts ya above your class be it 125 or 250. Some folks went up to 60 over but that puts your stock 247cc well over that and if caught you were disqualified for the season...for running an engine above your class...and if you clock in a fast time...they do measure your bore! Where is this leading?...well a guy down the road did not know they made BBK kits for GY6 50's...so he had the cycle machine shop bore his 30 over when the piston..rings and cylinder wore.(cause he rides with a huge jet and NO airfilter) Low and behold I did not know Wiseco made piston kits for these things. Actually I think he said it was a Honda XR 50 or XR70 piston and rings.....30 over..Going this route it cost him $278.00 for his BBK rebuild...so I told him I sell 80 BBK's for $42.00 at my parts/repair shop..boy was he mad.. Doubt this helped ya any...but it was worth sharing.. ;D Ha. He could've had extra money to spare for other performance parts. I bet the look on his face was priceless. Good story! When I was a pre-teen(32 now), we'd go visit my grandparents and uncles around the Jackson, MI area---- around 4th of July. We'd always stop and pick up some fireworks along the way from Indiana. Lol. Actually they were illegal here too in Indiana until... maybe 8 years ago? When buying them, there was always that waiver to sign saying that'd you take them out of state within 7 or so days. Yeah right, no one ever did that(unless they were from Michigan..etc). Everywhere in Indiana you'd see "Out of State Fireworks" signs. Hahaha. Now the laws here are really relaxed since then. Anyways, thanks for the explanations everyone. Although Indiana's scoot/moped law is dumb AND dangerous..at 25mph max..when cars are going 55-60mph. But down there they can SELL things illegal for you to own...posses or use there..as long as you sign that waiver saying you will have it out of state in 7 days....and I mean they can sell nearly everything illegal in that state and others...as long as you sign a permit. EXCEPT drugs.  Silencers and High Cap magazines as well...BUT if illegal in your state yer screwed. Michigan allows both..I just had to pay the Feds @200.00 for a tax...tax? On the silencer. Was 1/2 price of what they cost here. Just not sure why the $200.00 is called a tax...a tax is based on a percentage of an items value or cost. I told them.."oh so I am registering it huh?" They said "No there is no registration"..yet the paperwork contains the serial number..so that IS registration..how dumb does our Government think we really are? As for What's the deal with cc's in BBKs? Like was said above..my jog is an 80 BBK but really 72..if I install a stroker crank..it will be an actual 80. But $139.00 for an extra 8cc's is not worth it. Too bad they don't make a bigger Jog/Minarelli BBK as they do for the GY650..they have 80....100..110. Which are not really that big..ya got a 47mm...50mm and 52mm bore so  actual cc's is what ya get max. But I have been in every part of a Jog/Minarelli engine and a 50mm BBK vice just our 47mm ones should fit with ease. So why doesn't anybody make one?..  |
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As for scoot..I agree my Suzuki RM250 being 247..but called a 250 is acceptable. But 9 years ago when I bought my first Gy6 50cc's...80 Big Bore Kit....I was like kewl..30cc's more! Of course back then since they were new to the market or sumpin...they cost close to $150.00 just for a cylinder and piston kit! 
actual cc's is what ya get max. But I have been in every part of a Jog/Minarelli engine and a 50mm BBK vice just our 47mm ones should fit with ease. So why doesn't anybody make one?..