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Post by nulldevice on Apr 26, 2013 8:17:32 GMT -5
The lithium battery charging discussion leaves me confused.
Two amps is too much charge? What happens when it is installed in the scooter and gets charged with those primitive charging systems
?
How are you checking the charge, just a volt meter or under a specific load?
Do you need to balance the charge with the charger?
So many questions.
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Sophomore Rider
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The PartsForScooters Guy
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Post by fugaziiv on Apr 26, 2013 8:53:28 GMT -5
earlwb - Funny that you mentioned LiFe, as we are currently working on a line of LiFe batteries of our own. We've come to much the same conclusion about LiPo: While very effective, there is a certain liability when using them that I'm not quite comfortable with yet. This being said, LiPo is a very attractive battery tech for all of the above reasons that Carasdad is discovering. Matt Matt I used a float charger..not a regular charger as it only goes as low as 2 amps..and they told me that was too high. So far after abusing like I did in the above post with a partially dead car battery...which made the Li Po too hot to touch almost. It did take a full charge...which really surprised me! So they are tough critters...but yes...charging them must be done EXACTLY as the wholesaler that donated it to me to play with and test out said. It kept a full charge after 36 hours in my freezer even. But that does not indicate what 3 months of winter weather would do. Where can I find info on your LiFe battery? Does it need a special charger? The Shorai does and that is a $160.00 battery and $70.00 charger...so the market for them might be slow unless ya got a big bank account. This has worked fine on a trickle charger...no explosions yet *counts fingers*..nope..no explosion. The hard part about the Lithium batteries I have found..is when I show it to folks and tell them I can order them one. They are very skeptical as it is so light... 1.2lbs vs their 6lb YTX7A-BS...so they don't relate it to having more CCA. But that is human nature with technology i.e. when radios went from tubes to transistors they were smaller and lighter and many had no faith in them..  Carasdad - I don't have any information to share on our LiFe battery yet, as it is still in internal testing. I won't release it until it is ready, I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it yet, but I jumped the gun. My bad.  Here is the deal with Lithium batteries right now: They don't fail so much as they get too hot and catch on fire, or swell and explode due to poor charging or misuse. That is the reason that many lithium batteries have very strict charging requirements. I'm glad yours hasn't though, but it starts to swell get rid of that bad boy. Mod must have a pretty good supplier to be confident enough to have sent you a battery to test, so good on them. We aren't yet, although we are working on it. We did see a bunch of batteries at Canton Fair this year that look just like the one that you have, tester and all, so the tech is most likely getting better. I can see people being skeptical about how light the batteries are, since they feel like a casing with air inside. My guess though is it'll just boil down to how much people want to spend. What we've learned in our market is that many customers will choose the less expensive option battery instead of the more costly option with a 2 year warranty, simply to save a buck right then. The lithium option will be equivalent to a performance upgrade for the time being I feel. Early adopters and whatnot will be the primary market until we reach a point of general acceptance. I don't think that will happen until we have a proliferation of the larger names (Yuasa, Interstate, DieHard) with a lithium powersports option. Smaller companies like myself and Mod can push into the market, but until the big guys get there, it'll most likely be a fringe tech in our market. Matt |
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Post by carasdad on Apr 26, 2013 9:04:31 GMT -5
The lithium battery charging discussion leaves me confused. Two amps is too much charge? What happens when it is installed in the scooter and gets charged with those primitive charging systems ? How are you checking the charge, just a volt meter or under a specific load? Do you need to balance the charge with the charger? So many questions. Ok my wholesaler gave me the battery..he said trickle charge only...1 amp or less..preferably 1/2 amp. other companies that carry same said battery told me 2 amps for no more than 10 minutes. I have tried both...both work..no excessive heat or explosion. I agree with you on the scooter charging it...at high speeds the stator surely puts out more than 1/2 or 1 amp. This can be seen in my gf's scoot. She needs a new battery as hers will not hold a charge more than 2 days. Completely dead I kick start it..ride 4 miles to the store. Kick start it again to get home another 4 miles. When I get home I shut it off. Turn the key back on a hit the start button..and she cranks over. So quite obvious she was getting more than 1/2 to 1 amp from her stator on an 8 mile 20 minute trip to charge her old lead/acid battery that much.  To check the charge on this Lithium you just press the indicator button as shown in the pic. I also used a multimeter with engine not running and it shows 13.8 volts. Will test it with engine running today. I was told if stator is good it should be 14.0-14.2..we will see.  |
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Post by spandi on Apr 26, 2013 9:07:10 GMT -5
Well that's good. (even if you messed up you're off the hook.) D8 ;D
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Post by carasdad on Apr 26, 2013 9:49:00 GMT -5
Matt I used a float charger..not a regular charger as it only goes as low as 2 amps..and they told me that was too high. So far after abusing like I did in the above post with a partially dead car battery...which made the Li Po too hot to touch almost. It did take a full charge...which really surprised me! So they are tough critters...but yes...charging them must be done EXACTLY as the wholesaler that donated it to me to play with and test out said. It kept a full charge after 36 hours in my freezer even. But that does not indicate what 3 months of winter weather would do. Where can I find info on your LiFe battery? Does it need a special charger? The Shorai does and that is a $160.00 battery and $70.00 charger...so the market for them might be slow unless ya got a big bank account. This has worked fine on a trickle charger...no explosions yet *counts fingers*..nope..no explosion. The hard part about the Lithium batteries I have found..is when I show it to folks and tell them I can order them one. They are very skeptical as it is so light... 1.2lbs vs their 6lb YTX7A-BS...so they don't relate it to having more CCA. But that is human nature with technology i.e. when radios went from tubes to transistors they were smaller and lighter and many had no faith in them.. |
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Post by prodigit on Apr 26, 2013 12:40:47 GMT -5
Li Batteries have greater cranking amps. That allows them to run with less cells. This, paired with the ~4 years lifetime of a cell, causes these batteries generally not to be a very good purchase (2 years for a $25 Lead/Acid battery, 4 years for a $115 Li battery; you do the math!) Then why do  % of folks lead acid batteries here only last one season? $115.00 for a Lithium? Here you do the math www.ebay.com/itm/7A-BS-Lithium-Ion-Li-ion-Scooter-Powersports-Battery-/171007258460?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item 27d0d3af5c&vxp=mtr They plan to sell them from their shop for that price as well. I know another you gotta negate every post I make. Jealous cause I found these and not you. But as always EVERY post I make you negate. Shouldn't you be 'speculating ' more of your off the wall schemes likr the ones you post... i.e. gonna make your 50 a 30cc to get better gas mileage...or decrease a 50cc jet size from the stock 74 to a 64 for better mileage. Or anyone of your way out there and outlandish dreams and speculations that you post as 'FACTUAL' which really puts our new scoot owners and wrench turners at risk of ruining their scooter. pfft..keep negating everything I post...I need a good laugh..  btw..notice how many times folks have said "Thanks carasdad that worked" or helped them or whatever. Yet we have not seen one for your...ahem...I guess you would call them contributions. But then skuttadog..alleyoop..hank...fugaziz...and SO MANY others get a thanks for their help and contributions and help. You get none..so you feel left out. Many of us do find it very entertaining that you just HAVE to be the expert on everything...Keep it going.. I always enjoy a good laugh...and it sure is cheaper than paying for Cable TV to watch Comedy Central...  If you want to be factual, some of my scooters are running a (Chinese) lead acid battery for over 1 year without problems, others several months already. So your 'quarter' definitely is not accurate at all. And yes, many Li batteries have cells breaking even within 1 year. Most Li batteries I've tried lasted no more than 4 years. So, if you don't agree with someone, you can in a civilized way just say it. You don't have to make yourself look like a jerk or hammer everytime on your requirement to get my approval on every post, as it really doesn't lead to anything but problems. General rule, if someone doesn't say anything about your 'fantastic' idea's, means they either: 1- aren't interested, 2- do agree and have nothing to add or 3- haven't read your post. Don't classify me as someone who disagrees with you all the time. The problem is in YOUR head, not mine! |
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Post by prodigit on Apr 26, 2013 12:45:01 GMT -5
a higher cranking battery isn't need in a stock scoot, the 7ah regular battery even cranks the cheapie ebay bbk's, its when you have a 52mm or a higher quality bbk with more compression, something is needed if the lithium can crank over my 52mm kits i'd be a happier guy, so more than likely i'm gonna have to go this route, i'll post after i get one, already posted the before vid Too high CCA's could easily burn out your starter. The battery's voltage drop is very little, causing the starter to rotate faster than with a normal battery. Under normal circumstances, this would be a good thing, as the engine would crank faster; however in the case of a dry vacuum fuel line, where you'd have to start for several seconds, to tens of seconds, it's easy to overheat the starter. The chinese user manual, with current 7A batteries, already says not to crank the starter too long; and give it long pauses in between. (like 5 seconds starting, and 20 seconds break or something, before cranking again). |
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Post by prodigit on Apr 26, 2013 12:54:11 GMT -5
The lithium batteries are the wave of the future. But one needs to use a special charging circuit for them though. A regular battery charger won't be able to charge them properly without damaging them. The lithium polymer batteries can be dangerous as if something happens they can go bad and burst into flames on you. The more safe LiFepo4 batteries don't normally catch fire and thus would be more wise to use. You see the LiFe batteries in the hybrid and electric cars for that reason. But with a good LiPo or LiFe battery charger the batteries would have a much longer lifespan over the old lead acid batteries. One problem with lead acid batteries is that because of the lead and acid too, no one wants to make them much anymore as it is so environmentally dangerous to do so and becoming very highly regulated as well. Worse is the batteries seem to be getting worse and worse as to quality and are going bad much faster than they used to. What you're talking about are regular Li battery cells, soldered into a battery. The stator won't ever produce enough voltage to overcharge them; so you won't need to worry about them catching fire. However, most batteries come with a BMS (Battery Monitoring System). These batteries have a chip within the battery, that regulates the charging of the cells, and records their condition. When a battery cell's condition deteriorates rapidly, the BMS will disable it, to prevent current from normal working cells, to backflow into the broken cell. If this ever happened, you'd notice: 1- A drastic decrease in battery life (like all of a sudden a 10%, or upto a 25% drop in charge on a 4 cell battery) 2- A voltage decrease (4 cell batteries are the most prone to this. Voltage could go down from 14V to 10V; or even drop to 0V on a 4 cell) 8 cell batteries might still maintain a 14V load, however in the case of an 8 cell with 1 bad cell, one of the other cells will take over the power transfer of both cells; in which case it gets loaded more heavy than all the other cells; and deteriorates and depletes quicker; resulting in a 100% voltage at startup, but only after a few minutes of using the battery, without a charger, the voltage could drastically drop to 75% (aka 10v, on a 4 cell), and from there depletes lower at it's expected rate. The best batteries are those with all cells soldered in parallel, and a BMS that electronically ups the voltage to the needed 12V. There are very few of these out, and they cost quite a bit. Most of these batteries are soldered in series of 4 batteries, to get the 12V (14V) needed to run in scooters. Then depending on the amount of cells they create 1 or 2 or more strings (eg: a 4 cell has 1 string of 4 batteries in series; an 8cell has 2 strings in parallel with each 4 batteries in series, etc...). |
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Post by prodigit on Apr 26, 2013 12:58:27 GMT -5
BTW, they sell batteries at BMSbattery.com, if you're ever interested in experimenting with your own LiPo, or LiFePo4 batteries.
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Post by carasdad on Apr 26, 2013 14:15:15 GMT -5
BTW, they sell batteries at BMSbattery.com, if you're ever interested in experimenting with your own LiPo, or LiFePo4 batteries. Wow look at all those posts up there....eeesh. I have no problem with you disagreeing with my posts. BUT you do it to NEARLY every post people make besides me. You are an self procalimed expert of some sort.. Look at who all you called out and negated what they said...Matt from PFS...alleyoop..and several others. Not really sure I get it.  |
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Post by carasdad on Apr 28, 2013 20:21:35 GMT -5
a higher cranking battery isn't need in a stock scoot, the 7ah regular battery even cranks the cheapie ebay bbk's, its when you have a 52mm or a higher quality bbk with more compression, something is needed if the lithium can crank over my 52mm kits i'd be a happier guy, so more than likely i'm gonna have to go this route, i'll post after i get one, already posted the before vid Too high CCA's could easily burn out your starter. The battery's voltage drop is very little, causing the starter to rotate faster than with a normal battery. Under normal circumstances, this would be a good thing, as the engine would crank faster; however in the case of a dry vacuum fuel line, where you'd have to start for several seconds, to tens of seconds, it's easy to overheat the starter. The chinese user manual, with current 7A batteries, already says not to crank the starter too long; and give it long pauses in between. (like 5 seconds starting, and 20 seconds break or something, before cranking again). Not true. I hope an electrical whizz bang will join in explaining this with me. CCA has nothing to do with overloading your starter, If so folks could not be jumping their scoots with car batteries which are 600+ CCA! You are lost when it comes to electric in thinking as you stated above the 7 amp battery is ok...as it is only 7 amps. Those 7 amps relate to amps per hour..NOT CCA! Amperage is 'drawn' vice 'given' it is an on demand amount and not constant nor linear. Therefore a even a 600 CCA battery will only deliver..say 5 amps if that is all your scoot starter is needing to crank over. Amperage load does go up as demand goes up...such a super high compression engine. Voltage is. 12 volts is always 12 volts...except under a load it may decrease slightly. So burning up your starter with the 200CCA is not even close to plausible. The starter will ONLY pull the amperage it needs...it is NOT being force fed the total 200CCA it is using it at the rate needed to do its job. look at it this way...most house have 200 amp service boxes feeding the house. So in your explanation that would mean that every bulb in the house is being force fed 200 amps of AC current. Well..are they?..Cause if amperage works the way you describe the bulbs would get all 200 amps AC current and explode. Again it is an 'on demand' thing. Your electric stove and dryer have 30 amp plugs and wires....so how does that work without a fire..since they are being forced that 200 amps AC current?. Again...reason is the amperage is based on demand...they only need about 15-20 amps to run correctly...if they have a load on them they will draw more. (That is why we have circuit breakers..to protect from an over load) So my 180 CCA battery is NOT going to shorten the starters life..cause as I said amperage is load dependent..it only increase when the electrical device has a load on it. One more time..yet you still won't understand and of course will still know it all. Voltage is constant..hook 12 volts to your starter..you get 12 volts...hook 24 volts to your stater..you get 24(That WILL burn it up..not amperage) Amperage is not a constant..it is not force fed into an electric motor..what part of that do you not get?? I mean really. Look our car will crank over with a 270CCA lawn tractor battery..tried it once to rule out a bad relay. The cars battery itself is 680CCA..so if it only needs 270CCA to crank...shouldn't the remaining 410CCA being force fed  to our starter burn it up?.. One more time cause yer a bit slow for an expert at everything. It does not burn up the car starter because it only needs to draw 270CCA to start..and that is all it draws...the other 410 are not needed...they are just reserve. So back to scooter starters.. the Lithium cells high CCA is going to burn up the starter? Re think all of what you said..and all I have posted above. Being wrong is always 100% ok..we all are a times..we're human. But if we knowingly speak of things with only partial information and lots of speculation when we know we are not correct. Well that becomes an issue. This IS NOT a flame prodigit post. It is merely an explanation of the reality and facts. Hang in there..somebody in the electrical field will be along to confirm what I wrote..and explain it better...explain it in proper terms and precisely how it all actually does work. Which will be great...because then we all..will get to learn. As they say..learn something new everyday..and this is all of our opportunity for that. Happy riding...be safe.. |
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Post by nulldevice on Apr 28, 2013 21:19:23 GMT -5
Prodigit, carasdad,
Sorry about this, but understanding OHM'S law is absolutely essential to understanding electrical circuits, so here we go.
E =IR
That is math speak for:
Voltage (V) equals amperage (I) times resistance (R).
If you know any two you can calculate the third. Why those particular letters are used has to do with history and different languages of the early electrical researchers.
Use E=IR to get volts
Use I=E/R to get amperage
Use R=I/E to get resistance in ohms
Like playing a musical instrument, playing a sport, or turning a wrench, math takes practice to understand it and use it. Dig out a calculator and play with the formulas. If you understand the math you only need to remember one formula, E=IR, You simply plug in what you know and solve the equation.
Oh my, I just realized, you need to have paid attention in shop math or algebra class to follow that explanation. I hope this helped.
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Post by JR on Apr 28, 2013 22:19:45 GMT -5
I see a lot of very valuable information here and also see people who have different opinions on this matter. All OK as long as we keep things civil. I personally agree with some of the thoughts on both sides of the spectrum and one I will agree on is lead acid batteries are slowly and for sure going to be a thing of the past in small applications, one of the reasons is sulfuric acid is still poisonous and dangerous and with people doing such horrible things to others acid is a thing that needs controls on. Large industrial acid batteries probably will stay around for some time to come, like the ones used for electric forklifts and pallet jacks, etc. MY experience with the cheap lead acid batteries that have come with two of my scooters is they are thrown away in one year. Lead acid batteries don't like extreme hot and cold. I have a huge DR mower bush hog/generator set up with a 25hp Kawasaki engine on it, has a12 cell lithium battery now 4 years old, still cranks like a champ even on days as cold as 2f which I did 2 years ago one morning with the electricity out at my house. All of us have ideas, thoughts, opinions and facts to share, don't agree with someone I've found that the best way to start a conversation is with three letters "IMO". JR |
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Post by shalomrider on Apr 28, 2013 23:23:34 GMT -5
howdy, IMHO---experience has shown me that if the battery has less capacity, when you hit the start switch the amp draw lowers the voltage too much resulting in watt(heat) increase which is what causes the damage within the starter and wiring and switch and connections etc. so one does want( again from experience) the highest capacity battery you can put in the space available. everything in the electric system will benefit. my explanation may be technically deficient but the knowledge is correct.-----IMHO
lotsa miles and smiles to ya
ken
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Post by carasdad on Apr 29, 2013 8:06:43 GMT -5
Prodigit, carasdad, Sorry about this, but understanding OHM'S law is absolutely essential to understanding electrical circuits, so here we go. E =IR That is math speak for: Voltage (V) equals amperage (I) times resistance (R). If you know any two you can calculate the third. Why those particular letters are used has to do with history and different languages of the early electrical researchers. Use E=IR to get volts Use I=E/R to get amperage Use R=I/E to get resistance in ohms Like playing a musical instrument, playing a sport, or turning a wrench, math takes practice to understand it and use it. Dig out a calculator and play with the formulas. If you understand the math you only need to remember one formula, E=IR, You simply plug in what you know and solve the equation. Oh my, I just realized, you need to have paid attention in shop math or algebra class to follow that explanation. I hope this helped. No need to be rude. I did pay attention in math class in High School and College. Although my degree may be in Nursing...it does NOT make me an idiot...I graduated with a 3.9. Also I have a MENSA card..I will scan it and send you a copy.  My father was an electronics engineer..so I know ohms law and other formulas as he used to nearly preach them to me daily. Wanted me to follow his footsteps but was so annoyed with it I joined the military instead. I was trying to explain why more CCA would not ruin a starter..in plain simple terms that he may understand. If you read...what I asked for was help from a 'person in the know'..like you... not a rude snide commentary like you gave. Apologize for your crude and insulting post..and I will accept it. shalomrider. Thank you! Exactly what nearly all of us have experienced...that when the battery voltage is low or amperage is low...the starter is drawing more amperage than the battery can give...so the starter and solenoid get hot and can fry. After all...if that was not the case...why in the do folks try to buy the highest amperage rated battery they can fit in the scoot. Is it because higher CCA is going to burn up their starting system and that is what they want??. NO..of course not..as you know and just stated..it is just the OPPOSITE...they want that power there so they don't put a strain on the system. "Real" electricians unlike nulldevice will hopefully jump in and show that you and I are correct.. |
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% of folks lead acid batteries here only last one season? $115.00 for a Lithium? Here you do the math 
