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Post by dollartwentyfive on Jun 19, 2020 9:32:59 GMT -5
Yes, I feel I am throwing a lot of repairs at this issue too! But thankfully its not my main bike so I can take some time w/it. Does the air bypass valve have another name? I googled it for my cvk carb but couldn’t find anything in the diagrams, and everything is connected properly. The choke seems to be working perfectly. Its a genuine Honda unit & the system is 12volt. It pulls off after about 3-5 min. Getting back to the timing, its an after-market cam (endigo rock crawler) & I’ve read that these could be off by a couple teeth & the motor will start and run fine, except for higher rpms. I have a timing light gun, can this be checked? Thanks for any insights. i'm not sure if the valve has another name. i also believe the OEM carb is 172mm.
the timing issue can be addressed by removing the plug, use a coat hanger to determine TDC, then notching the crank. you can then use a strobe. plus, there is a plug on the right side of the engine that can be removed and you can view a mark to determine if the cam has been timed properly. this process is very difficult to do visually without a strobe.
be aware that the 244 uses what it called a "wasted spark" ignition timing, the plug fires both at the end of the exhaust stroke and again at the end of compression.
also, DO NOT use the running method to set the valve gap. honda specs calls for this gap to be set with the valves cold and the engine not running.
replace the plug with an iridium plug, pricey but well worth it. this alone solved a number of my idling problems.
once you get all the bugs out of this 244 you'll find it to be a fantastic ride. mine could easily do 70mph and got between 52-55mpg. i used 20gram rollers.
also, do not use "thread lockers" or "gasket sealers" on your 244. remember, these engines are ALUMINUM and are easily damaged by the use of such compounds. use only fluids safe for aluminum engines.
questions: did you buy the bike new or used? does your bike have 1 or 2 radiators? are you SURE the choke is 12 volt? the bike might be 12v but the choke doesn't run off the 12v system, it runs off the alternator.
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Post by 926am on Jun 19, 2020 11:53:59 GMT -5
Yes to all of that.
The stock carb is 30mm, 32mm is for more flow. They look identical, so I don’t know where/what the bypass valve is.
It has one radiator. Its a ‘06 cf moto v3. I really don’t think the choke is the problem, you can hear the rpms pick up when it pulls off. If it were stuck/not functioning I think drivebility would suffer throughout the rpm/throttle band.
The reason I brought up timing is due to the aftermarket cam. I’ve read that they could be off, but w/o timing marks on the variator/frame I can’t see how to check w/a gun. It’s just one more thing that would normally be checked on a car. You know, rule stuff out.
I guess the main problem is rpm drop at highway speed & wide open throttle (or just when i back off). Its backfired 2 or 3 times, but the loss of power is everytime.
The coil & cdi are stock, but I have others to try if either one could be the culprit.
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Jun 19, 2020 15:20:29 GMT -5
the only way i know of to check for correct cam timing is through the plug hole on the right side of the engine.
this is VERY HARD to do with one person because you need to verify if there actually is a mark.
i can't imagine a cam manufacturer not marking their cams.
i never had to deal with this on my engine so i'm not too sure of the procedures.
i highly suspect that choke though.
replacing it will do no good unless you get it from a honda dealer, and honda dealers don't want to sell parts for non honda products.
almost all of the problems i had with my ride was electrical.
the choke was one of them.
an intermittent short was another, it wasn't enough to blow fuses but was enough to prevent WOT.
it took me 6 months to whip that beast into shape, but once there she stayed there until she died.
and i rode it HARD.
about 4 years ago i had it cranked out on a country road and the engine let go with what reminded me of the starter clutch engaging.
it ground to a stop within 2 seconds and hasn't started since.
RIP buddy, yeah she was my friend.
okay, enough of that.
you can find some excellent service manuals online for this engine.
look for a cn250 honda helix service manual.
it's too bad i can't upload them to you.
good luck
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Jun 19, 2020 22:15:09 GMT -5
another name for the valve is the air cutoff valve. (check number 6 below) here's a good resource for you, some good stuff at this site:
engine service manuals: |
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Post by 926am on Jun 20, 2020 9:25:35 GMT -5
Thanks!
I checked it out and the rubber o-ring had come apart. It was half out of the hole. I replaced the choke w/a new one and took it for a ride, same problem. Nature of the issue was exactly the same.
Back to the drawing board😥
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Jun 20, 2020 10:19:34 GMT -5
Thanks! I checked it out and the rubber o-ring had come apart. It was half out of the hole. I replaced the choke w/a new one and took it for a ride, same problem. Nature of the issue was exactly the same. Back to the drawing board😥 the problem will not be solved by replacing the choke with a 12v model unless the OEM choke is a 12v model.
apparently you do not understand the issue with the honda 244cc. the issue is the 244cc has a choke that runs directly off the alternator. the alternator produces an AC voltage well in excess of 12DC, somewhere in the neighborhood of 70v. replacing this choke with a 12v model will result in an IMMEDIATE burnout.
i replaced my choke 3 times before i realized this.
i finally came up with a workable solution. i had to tear apart one of the old chokes to see how it worked, then i used a second one to fashion the replacement. i didn't have starting problems until the temp fell into the low 50s, but a simple hand over the intake for a moment while starting worked. my intake was an airbox that rested on top of the CVT. i didn't have to dismount to choke it.
anyway, good luck.
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Post by 926am on Jun 20, 2020 17:11:04 GMT -5
I got a new genuine honda choke that plugs into the frame harness. Its works perfectly.
Seems the problem was being caused by over-jetting. I reduced the #145 main to #135 & the issue has vanished. I havent ridden this bike since last year, and I cant remember why the jetting was so high.
Pulls real nice now! Thanks for all ur suggestions. I got it ‘for sale’ on insta @918am and smartcycleguide
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Jun 21, 2020 5:34:24 GMT -5
i've noticed the links for the service manual in my last post doesn't work here is an alternate source. this link includes manuals for a variety of bikes and you want the honda helix or honda elite 250. both of these for years 1985-1988 www.motorscooterguide.net/Downloads/Downloads.html |
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Post by 926am on Jun 21, 2020 8:27:10 GMT -5
Wide open throttle is perfect! Nice strong pull. There’s still a bit of richness when I roll off the throttle.
Looks like I’ll have to adjust the plunger needle.
Can anyone advise, what increments to adjust? I’m currently at the end so I cant move the clip any more, so regarding a new needle, how much bigger should it be?
Looks like the clip increments are pretty tight...just a few millimeters in between... so a new needle should be like 5 mil longer?
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Jun 21, 2020 16:06:11 GMT -5
i tried adjusting my slide needle, but even 1 notch up or down resulted in a worse situation.
i've have very few carburetor problems, sticky float, incorrect choke. cracked intake. my carb was OEM though.
the issue with the needle is probably wear. the sides should come uniformly to a point, the sides shouldn't be concave.
also, when reassembling the slide, make sure the slide is pushed all the way up before tightening the cover screws.
i've been thinking about getting a used helix because i really do miss riding.
does anyone know what i can get for about 3 grand?
a helix goes for about 2 grand (roughly), but what about a bergman? or a yamaha?
it has to be a twist and go though.
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Post by chewbaca on Jun 21, 2020 21:30:47 GMT -5
for 3k you can get a new 300 China scooter no problem
or a 400 used Bergman
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Post by 926am on Jun 22, 2020 8:22:43 GMT -5
$3k is a little out of my budget!!!😂😂😂
I replaced the needle, plunger, & spring (from another identical carb) The new spring was more compact, & the needle was perfectly straight. It felt better immediately.
Engine is really close to ‘dialed in.’ I get just a hint of too rich when I roll off from wot.
I guess I can reduce the main jet down to #130 & shim the plunger needle. (At #130 it felt limited at wot, like anything over 55 mph was an effort. With the #135 it keeps going, pulling good.)
Getting close...
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Jun 22, 2020 9:29:25 GMT -5
for 3k you can get a new 300 China scooter no problem or a 400 used Bergman almost all 300china bikes are actually a 257, plus, if i go chinese it would have to be the 244 and they aren't made anymore AFAIK.
i'm leaning towards a good used helix but i don't like the small tires or the rear drum brake, although i guess i could swap out the old engine in my old chinese bike, but that would mean replacing A LOT of parts.
a 350 or 400 bergman sounds really good to me, the problem with that is lack of local dealers, there are 2 within 100 miles of where i live and neither of them have any used bergmans in my price range.
i'm sure i'll find something
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Post by chewbaca on Jun 24, 2020 2:37:58 GMT -5
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Post by dollartwentyfive on Jun 24, 2020 8:00:06 GMT -5
i'm kind of leery about chinese rides, mainly because i used to own one and i know what a headache they can be. now that scrappy is gone and i'm not sure about PFS (what happened to them) parts can be a problem. the local parts dealer (which was 50 miles from here) is no longer in business.
that's a nice looking ride though, but here again i'm aware that all isn't what it seems in regards to chinese rides.
i've run across some decent priced burgman 400s for 3 grand but all of them are hundreds of miles from here.
thanks for the link, i bookmarked it and i'll keep my ears to the ground.
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