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Post by oldchopperguy on Nov 11, 2018 0:05:43 GMT -5
Well boyz n' gurlz…It's been one of those months... After seven trouble-free years, the old Mouse has me driving the car for now.
The starter solenoid/relay went bad, preventing starting... So... I got a new one and installed it. BINGO! Back on the road in a day.Then, a few days ago, I started her up to go get a state inspection. I left home, rode about a mile and the "battery" idiot light came on, and the motor quit. As I coasted to a stop, the starter feebly tried to engage with no button-push on my part.I managed to push it home with some blessed help from kind bystanders. I pulled the battery cover and the battery was too hot to touch, and I immediately removed it. I then connected a strong battery and the starter immediately began to spin.
Obviously, the NEW solenoid is DEFECTIVE and stuck in the "start" position. I have NO idea what damage this has done to the starter/alternator or other electrics. There was no funny noises during my brief ride, except for the starter feebly trying to engage as the motor stopped. I pulled the solenoid and re-connected a good battery. ABSOLUTELY nothing. DEAD. No dashboard, no lights, horn... NOTHING. And NO blown fuses.So... WHY no electrics whatsoever. No blown fuses and no fried wires. I figure there must be damage to the alternator, but only a guess. There is just no juice to ANYTHING. Bad weather and health issues keep me from working on Minnie right now, and that's OK. I'm still more than unhappy that the solenoid stuck engaged, causing whatever damage has happened. If after a reasonable effort, I can't diagnose and repair the problem, I'll have to bite the bullet and have my dealer truck the scoot to his shop and do the fix. He's as honest as can be, but if a new starter/alternator is needed, and maybe starter-clutch, stator, etc. plus labor it's not going to be cheap. I've been SO happy with Kymco quality, and note that while the new, defective solenoid carries a Kymco part number, it is also marked "Universal" and "Made in China" on the box. The ORIGINAL solenoid carries the same number, but is marked "Kymco" and "Made in Taiwan". It lasted eleven years, and when it failed, it caused nothing more than a few hours of my time, and $15. The current weather SUCKS, my pain level from arthritis SUCKS and my sweet Wife's health SUCKS. So... I'm not in an all-fired hurry to begin wrenching, and not too excited to spend $500+ or who knows how much (which I can't take out of Social Security) on a repair. The old scoot rides SO well, and has been SO dependable that I'll do anything within reason to get her back on the road. Right now though, the missus needs round-the-clock care, and if I get the little scooter running by next riding season, I'll be happy. Sure does make me think of installing a BATTERY DISCONNECT switch under the seat before EVER starting up again! Leo (really glad I have a good CAR this winter) in Texas PS: On the plus-side, at least my feral-cat friends will have their winter residence under the warm tarps on Minnie Mouse undisturbed...
Every dark cloud has a silver lining... or maybe a flea-infested fur-lining. 
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Post by snaker on Nov 11, 2018 16:45:50 GMT -5
Your troubleshooting doesn't seem to match your description of the problem. Its good practice to review recent work when a new problem shows up but...
Why do you think a hot battery equals a bad solenoid?
Sounds more like a bad battery connection.
Could you hear the starter running when it wasn't supposed to?
You say you replaced with a good battery. How do you know its good and if it is, the solenoid wouldn't cause "no electrics"
I suggest that you carefully clean and inspect your wires and wire connections not forgetting the grounds.
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Post by wheelbender6 on Nov 11, 2018 17:16:25 GMT -5
I hope Minnie Mouse is running again soon. Weather has been crappy here too.
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Post by chewbaca on Nov 11, 2018 21:29:32 GMT -5
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Post by oldchopperguy on Nov 12, 2018 1:33:04 GMT -5
Your troubleshooting doesn't seem to match your description of the problem. Its good practice to review recent work when a new problem shows up but... Why do you think a hot battery equals a bad solenoid? Sounds more like a bad battery connection. Could you hear the starter running when it wasn't supposed to? You say you replaced with a good battery. How do you know its good and if it is, the solenoid wouldn't cause "no electrics" I suggest that you carefully clean and inspect your wires and wire connections not forgetting the grounds.
No, I realize the hot battery doesn't likely have anything to do with the solenoid. It just was the first thing I noticed. It does tell me I probably have a dead-short somewhere (probably within the starter/alternator) that fried the battery but did not blow a fuse. I did expect to find the 30 amp "main" fuse blown, but it was not.All connections were pristine. I replaced the bad original solenoid a few days previous, and everything was great. I rode several times with no problem. The minute the motor started, the red "battery" idiot light would go out like it should... The last ride, the scoot started instantly, light went out, and as usual, no indication that the starter was still engaged. Once the motor starts, the starter clutch disengages. However, when the redlight came on, and the engine died, as the rpm dropped to nil, the starter tried to engage feebly. That didn't last over a few seconds, and the battery showed only 5.4 volts of power after removal and cooling down. It is surely shorted out internally and will not take a charge.
From past experience, I know it IS possible to have TWO malfunctions simultaneously... The failed solenoid, and the old battery shorting out internally COULD happen together, and unrelated. I've had such things happen in past years... I had my Chinese GY6 CDI and coil fail simultaneously... Diagnosing drives me nutz… LOL! I got a NEW fully-charged battery, and when connected, the starter immediately began to spin... No ignition on, no starter button engaged. I immediately disconnected the battery and checked across the terminals of the "new" solenoid. The solenoid is DEFINITELY "stuck" in the "start" position. But, there are NO electrics at all. No headlight, dashboard etc. And no blown fuses, or fried wires. Even though the starter was not trying to engage with the motor running, I believe something went wrong inside the starter/alternator due to riding with the solenoid in the start position. Just a guess, but with some effort I should be able to diagnose. What frustrates me is that the only thing wrong originally was the OEM solenoid went bad. I replaced it and all was fine. Now, I have a major problem to diagnose because a defective $20 part failed in just a few days. When I get further into the thing, I'll post results. In the mean time, I have a GREAT car to get around in... LOL! Ride safe, Leo in Texas |
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Post by w650 on Nov 12, 2018 14:19:05 GMT -5
Does it really have a starter/alternator combo? I haven't seen anything like that in years. If it were me I would disconnect the wires from the solenoid and touch them together then hit the starter button and see what happens. The solenoid just protects the starter button from high tension wear and one hit won't damage it.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Nov 12, 2018 23:21:08 GMT -5
Does it really have a starter/alternator combo? I haven't seen anything like that in years. If it were me I would disconnect the wires from the solenoid and touch them together then hit the starter button and see what happens. The solenoid just protects the starter button from high tension wear and one hit won't damage it. According to the shop manual, it does have a starter/alternator combo. These scoots are "Greek to me" being an old-school Harley dinosaur... LOL! You're absolutely right about the solenoid only to protect the little pee-wee wired starter button. However, the doggoned solenoid is factory-wired DIRECTLY to the BATTERY. When touching the wires together, the starter spins regardless of use of the starter button. Touching the wires together, or simply shorting across the terminals always engages the starter... Even if there's NO juice to anything else. The only diagnosis I performed so far was to check the solenoid with a resistance meter, and it definitely is "stuck" in the start position. So IT is verified no-good... After only a dozen starts! I'm still at a loss as to why the battery got red-hot. I truly think it shorted out a cell or two. It's seven years old and I should have replaced it... But it was always reliable and held a charge fine, so I got cheap... LOL! When the engine started for that last ride, all seemed normal. I could plainly hear the starter-clutch disengage as soon as the motor fired up. Red "battery" light went out as usual, showing good charge. Then minutes later, the red-light came on and the motor died in seconds, the starter feebly trying to engage until the battery dropped below enough voltage to do anything. Currently, the weather is just AWFUL, keeping me from working on it. I still can't imagine a fuse NOT being blown, or some wires being fried. I think all the fuses are in one place by the battery. I need to be sure there are not others hid away some place... Sure would be nice if a new FUSE, and new SOLENOID and new BATTERY would fix the old Mouse, but... I'm not holding my breath... When it warms up and quits raining, I'll get back to work and see if I can find the gremlin... I also realize even the shop manual is not really clear about the alternator/starter combo. The English translation is little better than Chinese manuals... It's entirely possible that the charging takes place "elsewhere" on the motor. I'll keep posting as I learn more... It seems most Kymcos of various models use a similar system to my old Grandvista, and I may learn some good stuff to pass on to others. Stay warm! Leo |
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Post by w650 on Nov 13, 2018 15:24:06 GMT -5
But is it hard wired to the starter too? Run a test clip wire from the battery to the out side of the solenoid. I would also look around under there to see if there's a separate starter motor. I know a DC generator will motor with current to it. An alternator has to have field current running to it to charge.
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Post by snaker on Nov 13, 2018 17:58:27 GMT -5
Does it really have a starter/alternator combo? I haven't seen anything like that in years. If it were me I would disconnect the wires from the solenoid and touch them together then hit the starter button and see what happens. The solenoid just protects the starter button from high tension wear and one hit won't damage it. Starterator's (also known as starter/generators ) are alive and well. Brand new ones can be had and make good projects. I'm wondering if the combo referred to in this thread is maybe a "stator / alternator"
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Post by oldchopperguy on Nov 14, 2018 0:49:17 GMT -5
One terminal on the starter solenoid is factory-wired directly from the positive battery terminal. The other terminal on the solenoid is then wired directly to the starter.
The starter is a simple-looking "ordinary" starter, and I may well be confused about it's being also an alternator. ALL the lights on the Kymco are DC, unlike many Chinese rides. So I may be way wrong saying "alternator"... LOL! This thing is VERY much DC setup.
The Taiwanese shop manual uses a LOT of dubious nomenclature and speaks of the "starter/alt." unit. It also calls the disk-brake pads "hoofs" and the fuel-lines and hydraulic brake-lines "pipes".
For all I know, the starter could absolutely be a "starter/GENERATOR" and all the AC stuff (if ANY) are run through a bridge-rectifier from DC juice... or vice/versa. Electrics are not my cup of tea. I did research a new starter on the Net, and they are always called simply a "starter". They run anywhere from $29 to $200 new. In a pinch, I could replace the starter myself, but arthritis tells me it won't be a fun job... LOL!
If the culprit resides inside the electrics within the engine itself, I'll have to turn it over to my dealer, who, thankfully is very honest and reliable. Just NOT cheap...
I just need some good weather and time, and I will likely find the problem... Could be simple as a "hidden" fuse...
These scoots are fairly simple, but still have a few computer controls. Just "foreign" to me. I did manage to de-bug my Chinese GY6 and it had more bugs than a jailhouse bunk-bed... And this little scoot is far less "buggy" than the Chinese ride... LOL!
Right now, I'm just happy I have a great car to get around in...
Thanks all for the advice!
Leo
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Post by w650 on Nov 14, 2018 16:32:23 GMT -5
Hopefully it's nothing expensive. The Like 50 cost me close to seven hundred in repairs for a stator install and then a replacement of the barrel and piston at a local do everything shop.
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Post by chewbaca on Nov 14, 2018 19:35:34 GMT -5
Hopefully it's nothing expensive. The Like 50 cost me close to seven hundred in repairs for a stator install and then a replacement of the barrel and piston at a local do everything shop. ouch ! are you sure they didn't just buy you a new scooter and keep the old one for parts 750 is near what a used one cost I lost all faith in scoot shops after I paid over a thousand dollars for a used rebuild with instal it was poorly done and took a month |
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Post by w650 on Nov 15, 2018 0:00:26 GMT -5
Yes, it is what a used one cost. I had lost interest in the project and just palmed it off on the shop. The good news is they put a big bore kit on it. The better news is the work was done well. The bad news is I lost my shirt on the scooter. I had about a grand into it but sold it for $300.
It's hard to sell a 50cc scooter for much when a China scoot will go for a grand, new, for not much money.
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Post by shalomdawg on Dec 5, 2018 18:35:03 GMT -5
howdy leo
it's been a while since i was on this forum and i'm sad to hear of health issues with "the wife" and of course our own increasing age and old injuries catching up.
i'm hoping you can hang in there and have enough energy to find yourself out fixing on the machine one day without it even being on "the to-do list". i'm hoping that fer me too------
ken
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Post by oldchopperguy on Dec 6, 2018 2:40:45 GMT -5
howdy leo it's been a while since i was on this forum and i'm sad to hear of health issues with "the wife" and of course our own increasing age and old injuries catching up. i'm hoping you can hang in there and have enough energy to find yourself out fixing on the machine one day without it even being on "the to-do list". i'm hoping that fer me too------ ken
These days, it seems there is always "something" stealing our time. Being with the Missus 24/7 I can take good care of her. I can't be away more than a short trip to the store, or the shop... The weather right now is not conducive to working on the old mouse, but soon, maybe! I'll replace the known defective starter relay, check all wires and fuses and install a new battery. Maybe she'll go, but if all electrics are still dead, I may have fried the stator or some other internal electrics. If so, I'll have to bite the bullet and have my dealer truck it to the shop for a fix. He can replace the starter and internal engine electrics for around $500 worst case. Tough on Social Security, but worth it. The bike is still worth around $1,100 and is ideal for my riding needs. I can't gripe, after seven years of absolutely trouble-free transportation! I'd still have no problems with it if the new starter relay had not been defective, sticking in the "start" mode. I'll eventually find out just what damage that did.
If a $15 defective replacement part did half-a-grand damage, I will NOT be happy... LOL! But then, a $5 oil-drain plug cross-threaded can cost an engine... The rest of the scoot is sound as a dollar (at least a nice, current Trump-dollar!) and that makes it "doable" and worth the price. If I can get it running for next season, I'll be a happy camper... 
Ride safe, and thanks for the kind thoughts!Leo |
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