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Post by w650 on Aug 11, 2017 3:38:38 GMT -5
The Aprilia isn't in the game anymore but the discussion is relevant.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 12, 2017 15:09:15 GMT -5
Aprilia still makes the 850 but in a scooter that's not available in the US which is a shame to a degree since the ABS model beats the BMW by a large margin. You can still get the 850 Aprilia in the US as a John Deer Gator though and its proven itself to be quite tough.
Roughness in the pegs means the potentiometer on the computer driven CVT needed to be re-calibrated and the CVT servo re-lubed as some were accidentally sent out dry due to a misprint in the factory manual however that was corrected with a tablespoon of grease and a few minutes running the calibration routine with the Navigator Computer at the Dealer.
The Honda does win though on price point and fuel economy. At 2/3 the cost of the Aprilia and near to 250cc fuel economy the Honda is a bargain though some find in city driving the Honda sometimes hunts for the right gear and shifts up or down way too soon and often. Over the long haul most who I know that own both the Mana and the Honda DCT sell the Honda and stay with the Mana. The riding pegs on the Honda NC700 DCT tend to get annoying after a while in city riding since at stops they are rubbing against the back of your calves and tend to bruise you if you don't get your foot off the ground the instant you start moving.
The CTX DCT naked or dressed does not hit you with the riding pegs however some find the rear brake pedal way up front on the crash bars as a toe brake takes a little getting used to especially in stop and go city driving. I dislike the lower riding position of the CTX and prefer the higher seat on the Mana or NC700 with the sport bikes seating height about the same as on a Sport City, Beverly or Scarabeo.
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Post by w650 on Aug 12, 2017 15:33:26 GMT -5
While I've never been able to understand the Italian mindset on model selection, I only know if it sells, it stays with most intelligently run companies.
DCT is the wave of the future. I could see an engine set up like the Mana's in an ATV but it didn't seem to strike a chord here as a bike. Plus, I don't know, if you're going to ride a bike it should shift. It's part of the experience.
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Post by SylvreKat on Aug 13, 2017 11:21:21 GMT -5
DCT may be the wave of the future, but manufacturers need to get the bugs worked out first before loading them into vehicles! (says the gal who's now had her car's clutch-thingy replaced twice under extended warranty  ) >'Kat |
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Post by rockynv on Aug 13, 2017 11:31:58 GMT -5
It stayed as the SR850 Scooter but not the Mana. On the Mana one of the big issues was that many dealers did not understand it nor spend the time to send a tech for the factory training on calibrating it. It has 7 gearshift ranges, a paddle shift and a foot shift plus Normal, Rain, Sport and Touring Automatic modes. Belt life is 25,000 miles and like I mentioned previously those that owned and rode both the Honda DCT and the Mana usually ended up keeping the Mana. Some feel they outgrow the Mana however that is mostly due to pressure from Sport Bike fanatics who feel that the 135 or so mph Mana just isn't fast enough. Many with the GT model dress it with the panniers and top case and use it as a 2 up touring bike despite its relatively small fuel tank.
Aprilia unfortunately has to answer to Piaggio and does not call the shots. If Piaggio felt the Mana competed too strongly against their MotoGuzzi touring bikes then out it goes. The 125 to 500 cc Scooters from Aprilia always appeared to give higher performance than the Piaggio and Vespa models with the same size engines so guess what Piaggio no longer allows Aprilia to make scooters with the same engines as Piaggio and Vespa. So the 850 which is an Aprilia engine goes into an Aprilia SuperScooter that does not compete with any other Piaggio product along with sold to John Deer and then they allow them to use a Chinese built 50cc in a Motard Scooter.
Piaggio currently owns, Aprilia, Derby, Guilera, MotoGuzzi and Vespa. Many feel they have grossly mishandled Aprilia and placed too many restrictions on their products.
Their killing off Sport City for instance also smashed the French Cargo Bike that was based on it which delivered a more Sport Bike type ride that had a modified front fairing and seat with a cavernous trunk where the footwell was that could carry a weeks worth of groceries or enough luggage for two for a few weeks vacation with everything locked up inside the bike. Piaggio wanted the MultiStrada like Caponard or the MotoGuzzi filling that niche and killed multiple birds with one stone on that one. Killed competition against the Beverly 250 and an alternate to the BV350, Vespa 300 competitor and got rid of a light touring bike that could have cut into Caponard and MotoGuzzi sales.
How much is from Piaggio Corporate or just mirrors the preferences of Piaggio USA is anyones guess.
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Post by w650 on Aug 14, 2017 13:28:19 GMT -5
On the Mana one of the big issues was that many dealers did not understand it nor spend the time to send a tech for the factory training on calibrating it. It has 7 gearshift ranges, a paddle shift and a foot shift plus Normal, Rain, Sport and Touring Automatic modes.
And so we finally hit on the reason Italian bikes don't sell big. Poor communication and absurd techno gimmickry. This is the 21st Century Rocky. "Send a tech for factory training"?? Two words Rocky-You Tube. Any factory that has to have a complicated bit of tech should be able to teach via video. What low volume dealer, which most who sell Italian are, is shipping a tech off to Pontadera for training for the two Manas they'll sell each year?
You are aware that the Burgman 650 also uses thumb selection to change ratios too? Yet it doesn't inhibit sales and seems to hold without fiddling. As with any CVT equipped vehicle acceleration is so leisurely you would be left behind by shifty partners. As a commuter vehicle I'm sure the Mana was an excellent partner. As a sport bike its specs weren't up to its appearance.
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Post by rockynv on Aug 16, 2017 0:42:35 GMT -5
Boy are you off track. Aprilia provided the computers and training in the USA with either local training or at their US based training center along with video refresher training via the Dealer Only Site so you did not have to travel to Noale or Scorze Italy for training. You did not only get training on the Mana but all the scooters and sport bikes however most US Dealerships just wanted to sell the really high end bikes and had no interest in training. Aprilia even sent them the tools and computers to support the bikes they sold plus the computers worked for any Piaggio family product that have the Navigator or PADs interface be it an Aprilia, MotoGuzzi, Piaggio, Vespa, etc. The also provide a toll free dealer support line to get real time assistance from a US Based Piaggio Engineer to help guide you through a repair if you needed help. The Piaggio Engineer I spoke with lamented that most dealer mechanics would get into trouble yet would not call them for assistance and they would not find out until the customer called them directly after getting tired of the dealer or trying to fix what the dealer did wrong themselves. Yes Aprilia/Piaggio can be a hard case but they do have US Based training and provide the tools to maintain the bikes you sell and actually make the tools a mandatory part of the package sending them to you automatically based on what bikes you stock.
The Burgman 650 with the computer controlled CVT also requires calibration and costs a lot of money for a belt change. The belt life on the Burgman 650 should average about 50,000 miles due to the lower performance of the bike however there are known problems with the design that can and do cause early failures due to several pain points in the design which one hopes they don't have to deal with however they are there.
1) Belt Breakage - belt will snap either as a result of bearing failure or simply at the end of its service life
2) Primary Shaft Adapter
3) Pulley Position Sensor
4) Seized Pulley Bearings
5) Pulley Revolution Sensor Failure
6) Primary Pulley Stopper Bolt
Nothings perfect that's for sure however the Mana has proven itself even touring in such harsh places as the Australian Back Country.
Here is a Mana on a track where the owner is testing out his bike and learning the track against more seasoned riders on conventional sport bikes. He actually does not do very badly for and older gent about to go in for some major surgery.
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Post by w650 on Aug 16, 2017 5:36:52 GMT -5
Thank you for proving my point. What you described above is NASA resources an Aprilia requires just to stay on the road for a brief Sunday ride. It is the Hallmark of Italian failures over the decades. Massive fiddling just to be used.
Perfect example. Ducati. For years the darling of the motoring press but scourge of the general public. Constant electric and mechanical failures from their exotic use of tech and materials. Then Volkswagen bought them, introduced common sense and real quality control. Now Ducati sales are rocketing and the bikes are more durable.
You may enjoy spending as much time maintaining as riding your Aprilia but at the end of the day a Honda Forza is a better choice for a daily driver, heck maybe even a Citicom 300i. It's why the Japanese rule as everyday bikes.
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Post by SylvreKat on Aug 17, 2017 6:22:29 GMT -5
Uh, w650, what fiddling are you talking about? Unless you mean having to unplug the Battery Tender Jr before driving, and plugging it back in (which I'll admit IS fiddley, at least for me 'cause I can't see the plug I have to do it by feel). As for maintaining vs riding, I take my Italian to the mech for a tuneup every spring. Fresh oil, full check, fresh whatever else needs fresh. So far that's all the maintaining Peej has needed. He even has the original battery (from 2007), although I have a suspicion it's finally starting to fade as last time I idled him it struggled starting the third time.
You know, Piggy/Appy's training program really isn't much diff than car mechs getting certified. Sure, any "grease monkey" with tools can work on you car, but having training is always best. Just like any old monkey can push a copier button, but can it 2-up your page? Blank out most of that grey background from the red paper of the original? Face it, almost any job position from mechanic to copy-girl is better service with proper training. And yes, I can even do some maintenance on our copiers--because the techs have trained me on said maintenance.
>'Kat
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Post by w650 on Aug 17, 2017 14:15:51 GMT -5
Two things Kat. First, if I heard right, the BV 200 was built in China and like all Chinese built Piaggios didn't suffer fluky problems. Second, not all Vespas are finicky, some last forever with minimal intervention. BUT, and this has been a problem with Italian motorcycles forever. Overly technical specs requiring intense maintenance and poor quality control. The people who love them overlook that for the Mystique.
Desmodromic valves? Really
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Post by flyangler on Aug 17, 2017 17:37:09 GMT -5
No, the BV200 was not built in China, the Aprilia Scarabeo 200 was built in China using a 181cc motor that puts out 19 hp. The BV is built in Italy using the Vespa gt motor which has a 198cc and puts out 21hp at 12 to 1 compression.
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Post by SylvreKat on Aug 17, 2017 20:27:48 GMT -5
Uh, yeah, what fly' said.   Seriously, I did know my engine is 198cc, not pretend-200cc like some out there. I have found 160s listed as 200cc. Really folks? That's more like a 150+. And I know about mystique, I encountered the Vespa-snub at my dealer once. Two folks pulled in right after me. I greeted them and they very blatantly turned away from me. I asked my dealer if they didn't realize that my brand owned theirs. He said it doesn't matter to Vespissers, all that matters is mine doesn't have Vespa on it. And pointed out that although theirs were both also 200cc, mine was faster with a better ride 'cause they only had 12" wheels. So much for mystique over practical. Plus I think Peej looks way better than the Vespa-styling. I like the sharp look. As for Chinese-built Pigs, I believe the Fly is. And who knows, maybe the BVs are now, too. But they weren't back in 2005 (well, technically 2007....) And I have trouble believing poor quality control when all I've heard is how well-built Italian is. Sure there'll always be some bad ones that escape QC, but they can't have a good reputation for high quality with the high price if they're shucking out junk. >'Kat, trying to be less non-mechanicky.... |
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Post by rockynv on Aug 18, 2017 3:48:36 GMT -5
Thank you for proving my point. What you described above is NASA resources an Aprilia requires just to stay on the road for a brief Sunday ride. It is the Hallmark of Italian failures over the decades. Massive fiddling just to be used. Perfect example. Ducati. For years the darling of the motoring press but scourge of the general public. Constant electric and mechanical failures from their exotic use of tech and materials. Then Volkswagen bought them, introduced common sense and real quality control. Now Ducati sales are rocketing and the bikes are more durable. You may enjoy spending as much time maintaining as riding your Aprilia but at the end of the day a Honda Forza is a better choice for a daily driver, heck maybe even a Citicom 300i. It's why the Japanese rule as everyday bikes. What are you smoking fella. Changing the oil every 6,250 miles and belt every 12,500 and having a company that though a bit hard nosed at times puts resources out to back you up is not high maintenance. For most this means annually changing your oil and every few years changing the drive belt. Flushing coolant and brake fluid every 2 years is SOP regardless of brand so no high maintenance there either. You previously complained there were inaccessible and out of touch not providing easy to use and obtain resources and now your complaining because they are too accessible? Aprilia is considered like Honda for reliability. You need to start being more consistent and reasonable. Piaggio does not own Ducati and again I spend most of my time riding not maintaining. I only had one breakdown in 30,000 miles and it was due to experimenting with Dr Pulley sliders which damaged the oil sump gasket and belt not due to any issue with Piaggio engineering. I ride rain or shine even being caught out in Tropical Storms and have not had any electrical switch failures either. I am still using the original clutch and variator too. Total maintenance since 2010 is 5 oil changes and 3 belts plus 3 sets of tires not counting the Dr Pulley experiment however I knew there was going to be risk deviating from Piaggio OEM components when I agreed to try the Dr Pulley Sliders. When on vacation I will go touring on the Interstate and put up to triple the miles they limit you to on the Scooter Cannonball with no issues. You keep bringing up to the Scooter Cannonball and highlighting how a 150 to 169 cc bike won it however that is with good reason since the race puts you at a disadvantage if you have over a 200cc bike since you will be going too fast and not following the average pace set for the 150cc bikes which the race is designed to cater too. They tell you up front that having over 200 cc will reduce your chance of winning the Scooter Cannonball and be a detriment yet in 2014 despite using Dr Pulley Sliders and having the same oil seal issue and belt failure that I had from experimenting with Dr Pulley they had a rather high mileage 2008 Sport City 250 though having to stop for repairs because of Dr Pulley issues not Piaggio flaws, come in 3rd and probably would have won if the rider had not been experimenting with the sliders during the race. |
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Post by w650 on Aug 18, 2017 5:04:28 GMT -5
Okay. From now on every time I read about theongoing failures of metal and electronics on Vespas I'll post them here for you to explain Rocky. Starting with this. modernvespa.com/forum/topic155585The fuel pump problem went on for years...Oh, and how about those Aprilia V-4 connecting rods? What was it? Bad shot peening? My favorite. modernvespa.com/forum/topic149368?highlight=electrical+connectionsT he problem you have reported is not UN common and has been documented on here a few times in the past,
The cables connect directly to the voltage regulator which WILL fail at some point as this part is also well known as a weak link on the GTS
Do I go on? As for your maintenance schedules Rocky, your own words give you away. "The failures were because the owners didn't follow their maintenance schedules "By The Book". "Tires should be thrown away every three years" "It wasn't the bike's fault. The mechanics were uneducated" I'm not smoking anything. I just read...and listen. |
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Post by w650 on Aug 18, 2017 8:55:03 GMT -5
For those sitting in the bleachers observing this, let me explain. I've been street riding since 1973. Before that I did dirt riding for eleven years. I've seen a lot. I've heard a lot. Italian bikes have always had the Mystique of Harley Davidsons with many of the faults. I could string together anecdotal evidence of their flaws. They started out with the same footing as the Japanese back in 1961. A war torn country with cheap bikes to sell here. Even Sears used them. Today the Italians build "Niche" motorcycles while the Japanese build millions of them.
Hearing words like "The Italians are the Gold Standard of metal" raises the hair on the back of my neck. Rocky is entitled to his opinion but history tells otherwise.
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