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Post by endru on Sept 11, 2013 20:50:27 GMT -5
[replyingto=tvnacman]tvnacman[/replyingto]I'm back from my ride Okay well not quite... BUT... John - I think your CDI may have fixed the problem! I started it up with the old CDI and it idled like crap. Put the new CDI on and it was like heaven. The A/F screw was extremely responsive and the idle screw did its job. Most importantly, there was no backfiring out the intake or skipping during idle. And all that with an main jet (the stock exhaust is back on), which would have been unthinkable before! In my haste to get it back together just to test it out, I didn't put the shroud back on or get it street ready, so no test drive today. Plus there was a little smoke steaming off the cylinder area (not out of the breather tube), so that was a little odd... But hey, this is GREAT. The first positive result I've had in WEEKS. I'm crossing my fingers that I'll have time tomorrow after work to put it back together for real and take it for a cruise. John, if that CDI has done the trick I'm going to post rave reviews of it on the forum!
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Post by endru on Sept 11, 2013 19:45:24 GMT -5
[replyingto=buford1488]buford1488[/replyingto]Good checklist sailracer. Valves are gapped, I checked the head for leaks before installing - used the flashlight and the gasoline tricks, no visible damage on the cylinder wall, neither the exhaust nor the intake manifold were installed, studs are torqued. BTW studs torqued - you know how there are 4 studs in a square and 2 off to the side that only hold down the cylinder and not the head? What's the proper tightening pattern for those 6 studs?
Now - when I plug the hole with my finger, yes it is totally impossible. But I can't tell the difference between 40psi impossible and 230psi impossible...
I did get my new cdi in the mail from tvnacman, so I'm going to hook that baby up and see if there's any improvement in the idle.
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Post by endru on Sept 11, 2013 16:03:59 GMT -5
I finally got the top end reassembled with the new rings. The compression tester still measured exactly 40psi. So I figured it was definitely the compression tester that had the problem. Tried it out on my car and it got 170 or so... with a different adapter though. So maybe only the adapter that fit my scooter was defective ... just to be sure I put a little oil in the cylinder. If it were a defective gauge then it should have stayed at 40 psi, right? Well with a little oil it went up to 60 psi. 3 thoughts: - The cylinder wall is defective, hopefully can be fixed with a honing. - The new rings are bad or installed improperly. Unlikely though, because I installed them with the logo-stamped side up and none of the gaps line up. Silver ring was at the top. - The tester adapter is in fact defective, and the little bit of oil that got poured in just raised the compression above what was normal and pushed just a little more air through the leaky adapter. Any ideas what's going on here?
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Post by endru on Sept 7, 2013 21:12:50 GMT -5
[replyingto=alleyoop]alleyoop[/replyingto]I think I might just jb weld it there instead of super glue, I don't see why it would ever need to go back to rotating. I'm also going to it on my car and see if it goes over 40psi. Or take it back and exchange it for the one that doesn't use the quick fittings, especially since I'm going in to get the honer. Who knows... I hardly got any scooter work done today except for troubleshooting here on the forum. It was a very hectic day. I can't wait to get back to riding!
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Post by endru on Sept 7, 2013 19:37:43 GMT -5
I got the same compression tester from harbor freight and had the same problem with the adapter turning in the hose. I put a drop of superglue on it, and problem solved.I can now get it tight enough for a proper seal.(easily undone with a couple of vise-grips) I don't think the engine would even run on 40 psi. has to be the tester. That's really good to know. I mean, it was pretty tight when the hose began turning in the adapter, so I thought it was nonetheless tight enough. I'll do the superglue and see what effect it has.
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Post by endru on Sept 7, 2013 16:09:37 GMT -5
[replyingto=tvnacman]tvnacman[/replyingto]John - I think this is the tool you meant. www.harborfreight.com/1-1-8-eighth-inch-brake-cylinder-hone-97163.html. Looks like it will do the job nicely so that my new rings will seat well. Thanks again for looking out for me. Alleyoop - Right AFTER I took it all apart last night my first thought was "oh yeah, I should have poured a little oil in first." I remember having read that somewhere. Oh well. And yes I had the throttle wide open when I was testing it. Thanks guys!
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Post by endru on Sept 7, 2013 14:05:16 GMT -5
did you hone the cylinder ? this will lead to premature failure . Just replacing the head and not rings is a poor idea , being you had the jug off . I would recheck static timing . As for you being a non believer on the variable timing cdi I'm selling . Provided you have a timing light and check the timing with the cdi I offer . If it is less than what I state I will give you a full refund and pay to ship it back . The timing at idle lands on the "F" mark at about 3000RPM the mark jumps to the next line on the flywheel I figure is about 30 degrees advance . I don't think this cdi is the answer to the problem your having , I would chase the compression problem . I have had a few that smoked from the ccv it was exaust leakage . A complete top end rebuild jug , pistion ,rings , head with valves and gaskets . John Those are very good points John, thanks for your post. No, I didn't hone the cylinder, that takes way more skill than I have to keep from messing it up. I finally had the time yesterday to pull everything back apart and do some inspections. The head is just fine, no leakage was found. The gaskets are all intact, all the crankcase bolts were still tight, and most importantly the cylinder walls had no scoring or abnormal marks. SO it must be the rings, right?? The rings looked fine, but from what I've heard, it's hard to diagnose bad rings just by sight. Now what I did find is that the end gap was slightly too large. For a 50mm bore I think it should be about 0.2mm for the top compression and 0.25mm for the bottom compression rings. They were both .05 wider than that... so 0.25mm and 0.30mm respectively. Would this cause the tremendously low compression that I had? Maybe I goofed on the gap spec. when I installed them... I used the same formula this time as I did when I first installed. In any case, I'm going to use a tighter gap this time, possibly even lower than what it should be. LUCKY me the new set of rings I ordered came in today (a day earlier than expected), so I can get them installed right away. I was a non-believer about cdi's BEFORE I read your recent post with millsc. Maybe 2 months ago people were posting calling everyone else liars about their cdi claims, so I just figured it was a lost cause... but the recent one makes me think otherwise, so I'm willing to give yours a try. Not only have I wanted to get a good cdi anyway, but I really do suspect there's some ignition problem. It wouldn't cause compression issues, but I get backfiring into my carb and skipping at full throttle. I'm 100% sure the that the cam holes were lined up when the flywheel mark was at TDC, so my static timing should have been good. When I rebuild today I'll double check it all again. I'm sure your CDI will do what it claims, I'm not going to bother testing it. Thanks for the PM, I'll go ahead and order that today BTW - what's a CCV you were talking about??
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Post by endru on Sept 4, 2013 20:11:47 GMT -5
To be honest, I'm think it's less likely that the head is the cause of the low compression. I've got a feeling it's the rings or my timing. I'll still check the head and everything when I tear it apart, but I never really had it running well enough even before I put the new head on. Even with the new gears, fine-tuned sliders and of course the bbk, I couldn't get it to go over 45 on a downhill. I would always feel the engine skip a beat at the higher rpms, and the idle was rough then too. The new head made it worse, probably because it lowered compression even more.
Maybe I gapped the rings improperly, maybe the cylinder got scored, I'll just have to feel around in there when I get it taken apart this weekend. I'll order some 50mm rings in the meantime, I think they're like $15 so that I can try them out just in case.
It could instead be bad timing. Like I mentioned, the ignition seems to skip at higher rpm's, and more importantly at idle I often get backfiring into the carb which I can hear through the air filter. Is there a way to test the cdi with a multimeter or something, or should I just buy a cheap, non rev-limited cdi and see if it helps? I would love to get a cdi with an advanced timing curve, but based on previous threads on the forum, I have the impression that nobody's cdi can be guaranteed to actually advance the timing like they claim.
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Post by endru on Sept 2, 2013 20:44:18 GMT -5
So I went to harbor freight and got this compression tester. www.harborfreight.com/quick-connect-compression-tester-95187.html I hooked it up, opened the throttle and ... 40 psi. I tightened it down into the spark plug hole as tight as I could by hand (the coupling between the threaded insert and the hose started rotating, so I figured it wasn't meant to get any tighter) and tested it again. I tried warming up the engine for 2 minutes and then tried it again... same reading. What the heck, how is the engine even running at 40 psi?? Maybe the gauge is junk, I don't know. Well if I trust the gauge then I'll need to take apart the top end again and double check the gaskets and rings. What do bad rings look like? I mean, will there be noticeable flaws or are they just hairline gaps? Speaking of gaps, I'll check the ring gap as well. Who knows, maybe I installed the rings improperly back when I first put the bbk on. I'll check the head for leaky valves... I've heard you can flip it upside down and pour some gas into it to see if the valves are tight.
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Post by endru on Sept 2, 2013 20:29:53 GMT -5
yep im the shop that doe's them for scrappy...............buford Then I chose my words wisely ;D Actually I have millsc to thank for that, I was quoting him I think.
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Post by endru on Sept 1, 2013 19:36:35 GMT -5
skuttadawg - a 45 idle jet? Wow that's big, but I'm guessing the 2T's run generally larger idle jets than 4T's. I ordered a 38 idle a while back, but discovered it was the wrong fit. Apparently Keihin carb jets are not all made alike. So I have a 38 ready to go for the new carb. EFI - you probably remember a discussion about that from the old scootdawg site. It intrigued me then, but I'd probably upgrade to a motorcycle before I made that kind of investment on my scooter. @buford - Yeah "racing head" is hardly accurate. The only people I know of online that port heads is scrappys, and from what I've heard they do a great job. At some point I may see if I can send in this one to be ported. Might be fun to try out myself though... I have a dremel and I could take a practice run on the stock head first. Anyway, as far as intake port measurement, you bring up an interesting point. I will measure it then to get an exact number, but I can tell you now the spacer from the stock head matches the new port diameter, so it probably is only 19mm. And if I got a 24mm carb, it seems like it would bottleneck right there at the 19mm intake opening. I'll try it without the spacer once just to see what that does. Do you know specifically why that spacer might cause problems? I've got a gasket underneath it and there's the o-ring on the manifold, so if it's tightened down securely I can't imagine any outside air leaking in. sickopsycho - Thanks for the plug on the compression tester and the psi numbers, that's exactly what I needed. That's a lot of good info, thanks everyone. Does anyone now about the main jets question - are the 19mm carb main jets compatible with the 24mm carb?
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Post by endru on Aug 31, 2013 20:16:03 GMT -5
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Post by endru on Aug 31, 2013 16:18:33 GMT -5
Right now I just want to throw my scooter over a cliff. I just simply cannot get it to run right. Nothing I tried helped. Among many other things, the carb is cleaned and the stock exhaust is on, but it still has an ugly idle that I can't fix with any carb adjustments, and the scoot sputters and skips when I give it throttle.
I'm beginning to wonder if the idling problem and the poor performance when giving it throttle are caused by the same thing. Could it be that my carb is crap? Or is the intake on it too small for my current setup? Could my cdi be bad and misfiring at all rpm ranges? I guess the only way to know is to buy a new carb and/or a new cdi, but if neither solves the problem then I just spent all that money for nothing.
So I guess my questions for the forum are 1) Can a bad cdi cause rough idle and what sounds like sputtering/misfiring, or does a bad cdi just stop firing altogether? 2) Is a 19mm carb ill-suited to a 50mm bbk, large valve head, and free flowing intake/exhaust setup, to the point that it would cause the described problems?
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Post by endru on Aug 29, 2013 20:47:53 GMT -5
[replyingto=chase50]chase50[/replyingto]I've always wondered what kind of a difference a 20mm carb makes over a 19mm carb. You're right, it doesn't seem like much. But then again, a 20mm usually takes a 40mm air filter (up from 38mm) so that might be the bigger difference than the 20mm business end of the carb. Anyway, yeah my filter is right on the carb, clamped down straight and tight. I sprayed around the intake and exhaust with carb cleaner while it was running to check for leaks, but I couldn't hear anything out of the ordinary. So, apparently I did have an jet in my cache. I popped that bad boy in thinking all my issues would be gone. Wrong. It splatted and stuttered on my test ride just as bad as the bigger jets. BUT the breather tube didn't seem to be smoking when I got back. I really hope it's like chase50 said and the smoking will just go away on its own. It still has a horrible idle, in fact I stalled out at one point and could not get the scoot to start up again until I had turned the A/F screw almost all the way out. Even then it doesn't idle well. My plan is to buy a 38 idle jet (which is a different version than the typical Keihin idle jets), clean the carb, try running with the stock exhaust and/or without an air filter and see if this tells me anything. A compression tester from harbor freight isn't that expensive but they have super crappy reviews, and my local Advance Auto doesn't stock them as loaners. BTW what's a typical compression reading for a 50mm bbk and head?
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Post by endru on Aug 28, 2013 19:48:58 GMT -5
I had smoke coming from my vent hose on the first start after installing my BBK, but it went away after the second or third run. On a separate note, maybe you're not getting enough air for the # .... are you using stock airbox? Now that's good to hear, maybe my rings aren't shot after all. I should have put that in my signature too - I'm running a uni-style filter. The only thing I can figure is that the 19mm carb is really restricting the airflow - at least that's what was suggested to me in another thread a while back when I first installed my BBK and was shocked about the 80 main working best. Still, I'm not running that 80 any longer on this setup, I'll wait until I can at least get an in there. If all else fails I'll spring for a compression tester and see what that tells me.
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