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Post by rockynv on Dec 10, 2016 10:34:49 GMT -5
Unfortunately Euro4 is the old target from the previous decade. Manufacturers need to be developing Euro5 bikes to stay in the market. Cars are already mandated to Euro6 and they may push for bikes to meet that standard sooner than originally published.
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Post by w650 on Dec 11, 2016 20:03:39 GMT -5
I'm thinking that the Chinese manufacturers that are serious about selling in Europe will meet the standards. If Harley Davidson can do it, the Chinese should be able to.
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Post by w650 on Dec 22, 2016 9:25:34 GMT -5
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Post by spandi on Dec 23, 2016 23:25:12 GMT -5
Like BMW in China before them, KYMCO will just train the workforce to turn out a higher quality product than the Run-of-the-mill Chinese scoots.
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Post by rockynv on Dec 24, 2016 11:11:32 GMT -5
Like BMW in China before them, KYMCO will just train the workforce to turn out a higher quality product than the Run-of-the-mill Chinese scoots. That is what Piaggio did however they were committed to quality and kept they own engineers on-site to verify that their standards were being consistently met. They found that spot checking did not work and that they had to be a fully committed on-site partner not just a distant customer or only on-site after a problem had been detected. I saw the quality of the bikes the Chinese partners made under their house brand literally leap ahead in quality after their first years association with Piaggio.
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Post by w650 on Dec 24, 2016 21:28:35 GMT -5
What I'm going to find interesting is when Benelli bikes are penetrating the market. The Chinese will be using the designs of Italian engineers, modifying the designs to meet available metallurgy and production capabilities and sending the product off to the world. It will be even more interesting to see if the bikes are perceived as Italian or Chinese by the masses.
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Post by spandi on Dec 25, 2016 0:28:54 GMT -5
What I'm going to find interesting is when Benelli bikes are penetrating the market. The Chinese will be using the designs of Italian engineers, modifying the designs to meet available metallurgy and production capabilities and sending the product off to the world. It will be even more interesting to see if the bikes are perceived as Italian or Chinese by the masses. Hmm, more like "Chitalian" perhaps?
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Post by spandi on Dec 25, 2016 0:34:19 GMT -5
Like BMW in China before them, KYMCO will just train the workforce to turn out a higher quality product than the Run-of-the-mill Chinese scoots. That is what Piaggio did however they were committed to quality and kept they own engineers on-site to verify that their standards were being consistently met. They found that spot checking did not work and that they had to be a fully committed on-site partner not just a distant customer or only on-site after a problem had been detected. I saw the quality of the bikes the Chinese partners made under their house brand literally leap ahead in quality after their first years association with Piaggio. Oh I agree. But I'm wondering when sooner or later the Chinese "get it" (by being around major Western manufacturers and following their example if nothing else) and evolving like Hyundai did.
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Post by rockynv on Dec 25, 2016 11:06:34 GMT -5
That is what Piaggio did however they were committed to quality and kept they own engineers on-site to verify that their standards were being consistently met. They found that spot checking did not work and that they had to be a fully committed on-site partner not just a distant customer or only on-site after a problem had been detected. I saw the quality of the bikes the Chinese partners made under their house brand literally leap ahead in quality after their first years association with Piaggio. Oh I agree. But I'm wondering when sooner or later the Chinese "get it" (by being around major Western manufacturers and following their example if nothing else) and evolving like Hyundai did. In the 50's the US laughed Dr Deming out of the country when he claimed that most quality and production issues with American products were caused by the poor management practice of not consulting with production line workers on what potential issues were however the Japanese welcomed him with open arms and sponged up what he had to say and the rest is history. If Chinese manufacturers take action on what they are seeing from the best of what Piaggio, Yamaha and Honda showed them and take on Dr Deming's methods we should see similar improvements in Chinese products coming from those factories. Its mostly office politics and management perceptions of what drives quality that makes or breaks things. Today Western Private Equity practices are driving Western Quality down in many industries so one does have to be careful of whose example they follow. Look how bad Harley quality got under the Private Equity group that took over AMF. Private Equity tries to lower costs by having their trained and expert workers distill each job position down into recipes and then optimizes things by getting rid of the people who know what they are doing replacing them with people who can read well enough to follow the recipe calling this process Work Force Optimization headed by a corporate officer called the CIO. When problems or variations arise the Monkey See Monkey Do workers who only know to do the A, B, C, etc steps on the recipe can't handle it and everything falls apart. Meanwhile the expert work force that would have prevented the quality escapes keeping everything running smoothly and such stand in unemployment lines.
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Post by w650 on Dec 27, 2016 7:10:36 GMT -5
Oh I agree. But I'm wondering when sooner or later the Chinese "get it" (by being around major Western manufacturers and following their example if nothing else) and evolving like Hyundai did.
I'm only hoping that if they "Get It" it doesn't drive the prices up like it did Korean materials. Hyosung scooters and motorcycles, Hyundai and Kia autos cost in the same neighborhood as their Japanese counterparts. I bought a Scion iA in June after pricing comparable Kia and Hyundai. With the options I had standard in the Scion both brands came in about a thousand more.
A 50cc Bintelli or Wolf comes in cheaper than a Kymco or SYM and will last just as long. I'm not so sure the Chinese don't get it. People here with common sense have gotten extraordinary service out of Chinese scooters.
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Post by spandi on Dec 27, 2016 8:19:13 GMT -5
Unfortunately I think that sooner or later the day of the (relatively) cheap Chinese scooter will come to a close. You might end up with lots of low quality scoots still being offered, but I think the more established "major" Chinese manufacturers will eventually up both the quality and price. But yes you're right, the scoots (with upgrades and some wrenching) have been a good value for the money and sure beat some of the more over-the-top prices being ask by other name brands
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Post by tseg on Dec 27, 2016 12:14:28 GMT -5
The article mentions Kymco has had plants in China since 1994. I think most of their 50cc & 150cc scooters globally have been made there for the better part of a decade (or more). As others have said, as long as production/purchasing is contained within Kymco plants (vs. outsourcing in China) it is a non-issue. My son got a new Super 8 for Christmas and I am amazed how many obscure parts are branded 'Kymco' on the bike. The company I work for sells retail product in China and counterfeiting there is a big deal there, so I'm assuming their plastering their brand on every part is to combat counterfeiting and ensure buyers in markets where counterfeiting is massive (South America, for example) that they are getting the real deal, even with replacement parts.
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Post by rockynv on Dec 27, 2016 13:54:16 GMT -5
Prices started to climb after the Olympics were held in China in order to pass scrutiney from a larger than normal presence of international media in China.
Today China faces such high air pollution levels that they are forced to restrict travel or even shut down airports and all motorized transportation to combat it. Look at the notices just this past month of travel restrictions in China due to bad air quality it will make you wonder what impact this has on the young and elderly in the areas impacter the worst. The days of unregulated pollution by industry in China are just about over and since they waited so long to bring this change about its going to cost a lot more to fix it. John Maxwells Law of the Price Tag applies here as the longer you put off paying it the more its going to cost.
Things are changing there and while they are making improvements in their products cost have to go up across the board to pay up for what they have done to their own environment the past 100 years.
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Post by w650 on Jan 6, 2017 8:41:57 GMT -5
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Post by cyborg55 on Jan 6, 2017 13:36:05 GMT -5
Chiming in here about the eventual and inevitable quality and price hikes it has to happen,,, more intensive build quality and better metallurgical practices will dictate it,,, it's all the work involved in making a better product,,, I've heard on the boards all over that the Yamaha smax does a solid 80- mph verified,,, that's dam good for a 155cc. Taiwan made of course,,, we could beat this all day,,,the boneville 49 cc record is 143+mph,,, but that's modified of course,, with real clean bodywork,,, I see no problem at all getting 100mph plus from an smax,,,in 2014 tony obrian went 116+ with a ss90 Vespa,, it all depends on how much work you want to put in it,,the Chinese have to do the work or be left behind
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