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Post by rockynv on Nov 22, 2016 9:20:41 GMT -5
Thanks - Proved my point that even Honda had to go larger displacement 300cc, high compression, programmable fuel injection along with 4 valves per cylinder to get pollution levels down and still maintain performance on the Rebel. On their dual sport they had to do similar at pretty close to a full 250cc, liquid cooled, high compression, programmable fuel injection along with 4 valves per cylinder to stay in the market in the future. The 300 will still only be marginally acceptable on the Interstate and the Dual Sport only Highway Capable while the 700 will be much more competent and in what they call Rain Mode the DCT will be fine for a new rider.
The Chinese have some catching up to do to stay in the game as shortly Euro4/Euro5, EPA, LEEDS and other environmental regs/certs are going to severely limit the markets for their current bikes and acceptability of their factories so that their products will continue to be allowed into a country that requires low carbon footprints of the products and their makers. Many of the bikes they currently sell are being advertised as available only while current stock is available which could hold some promise of advancement in the newer models or indicate troubles in keeping up the pace.
While some of the new bikes we are seeing from China have some promise they need to keep the momentum going or they are going to see even the Asian markets close up to them as environmental concerns continue to gain more global attention.
Currently the major bike manufacturers are having to make costly technological advances to meet the new air quality regulations and are having to drop some of their engine lines so they can put more resources towards getting the remaining ones updated to meet the new requirements or come up with new designs more in tune with the future.
SYM for 2017 is upping the anti with more high compression, liquid cooled, fuel injected along with 4 valves per cylinder bikes for 2017. Even their 2017 50cc MIO although air cooled is a very high compression engine at 12.6:1 however most of their money appears to be going to the 200cc liquid cooled, fuel injected, 4 valve replacements for the 150cc bikes and the 300cc, liquid cooled, fuel injected, 4 valve replacements for the 250cc bikes.
It is going to get very interesting over the next few years/decades as Air Regs get tighter and Manufacturers have to meet them.
The day may be coming sooner that we think where major cities around the world will only allow Zero Emissions Vehicles inside them with an outright ban on any Internal Combustion Engines.
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Post by w650 on Nov 22, 2016 14:55:24 GMT -5
The Chinese have some catching up to do to stay in the game as shortly Euro4/Euro5, EPA, LEEDS and other environmental regs/certs are going to severely limit the markets for their current bikes and acceptability of their factories so that their products will continue to be allowed into a country that requires low carbon footprints of the products and their makers. www.lexmoto.co.uk/www.ajsmotorcycles.co.uk/www.wkbikes.com/While most Americans aren't aware of what's happening in Europe, the Chinese are doing fine with emission regs so far over there. As you can see there are several successful companies in Britain selling Chinese bikes. I would think many of these scooters and motorcycles would be welcomed here. I don't think a move to 300cc is necessary for an entry level bike. It's just "Keeping up with the Joneses" IMO. The Suzuki GW-250 seems to impress people as does the SYM 250.
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Post by fugaziiv on Nov 22, 2016 15:12:20 GMT -5
Here's an interesting wrench: http://instagram.com/p/BNFmieuhyif I got this thing from China to play around with... y'know to explore and learn about how ebikes work and stuff. R&D. So the drawbacks. It's limited to 30mph, it takes 8 hours to charge and it's got about a 30 mile range (as best as I can estimate at the moment anyway). Also, fit and finish is pretty Chinese. So basically it would compete with a QMB139 bike in most performance metrics. But it was not expensive, and the riding experience is, well, good. I mean, it's great. Something to think about. Matt
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Post by rockynv on Nov 23, 2016 11:47:23 GMT -5
The Chinese have some catching up to do to stay in the game as shortly Euro4/Euro5, EPA, LEEDS and other environmental regs/certs are going to severely limit the markets for their current bikes and acceptability of their factories so that their products will continue to be allowed into a country that requires low carbon footprints of the products and their makers. www.lexmoto.co.uk/www.ajsmotorcycles.co.uk/www.wkbikes.com/While most Americans aren't aware of what's happening in Europe, the Chinese are doing fine with emission regs so far over there. As you can see there are several successful companies in Britain selling Chinese bikes. I would think many of these scooters and motorcycles would be welcomed here. I don't think a move to 300cc is necessary for an entry level bike. It's just "Keeping up with the Joneses" IMO. The Suzuki GW-250 seems to impress people as does the SYM 250. Yes more of what appears to be eliminating existing stock of old Euro3 Spec Bikes. They need to get rid of those and make the next giant leap to stay in the game. The Chinese can see the hand writing on the wall and do appear to be taking action to clear those out before they get stuck having to make them compliant with the new regs or scrap them. It is going to get interesting and the field may be thinning as we see who can keep up and who drops out of the game.
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Post by rockynv on Nov 23, 2016 12:15:40 GMT -5
Here's an interesting wrench: http://instagr.am/p/BNFmieuhyif I got this thing from China to play around with... y'know to explore and learn about how ebikes work and stuff. R&D. So the drawbacks. It's limited to 30mph, it takes 8 hours to charge and it's got about a 30 mile range (as best as I can estimate at the moment anyway). Also, fit and finish is pretty Chinese. So basically it would compete with a QMB139 bike in most performance metrics. But it was not expensive, and the riding experience is, well, good. I mean, it's great. Something to think about. Matt I picked up a used Nissan Leaf electric Car a few months ago and the instant torque from the electric is very addictive. Almost as big as a Honda CRV inside, can tow a 2,500 lb trailer, 5 passengers, 4 doors, gets 100 miles on a 4 hour charge the way I drive yet almost 100 mph capable and gets to the top very quickly and silently. Free charging at work for now as the company I work for is trying to improve their LEED Score. I have been keeping my eyes open for a used Brammo, Zero or Victory Electric Bike. I have not looked too closely however to get into the electric game the bikes really need to be built to plug in using the same L1/L2 port as the cars to take advantage of the ever growing network of charging stations already in place that meet that specification. I spoke with the electrician who installed the Charge Point where I work and he said he is backlogged with orders to install charging stations at stores, restaurants and businesses many of whom are setting them up as free for use by their customers. In our area Whole Foods, Dunkin's, McDonald's and Walgreen's have already started making provisions for electric vehicles with some free and others for a small fee. The Cities of Clearwater, Tampa, St Pete and Oldsmar also appear to be making their municipal charging stations available to the public and are installing them in the public parking garages too. If you commute less than 30 miles to work an electric can be a very good choice. 400 Volt DC Fast Chargers are also being set up for public use however I do not know how I feel about sitting on a 400 volt LiPo Battery in a bike. In a car those systems can be better isolated from the passenger compartment but on a bike your pretty much straddling them. Things are starting to move fast right now and its going to get interesting to see how it plays out.
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Post by w650 on Nov 23, 2016 15:55:38 GMT -5
I seriously doubt the Chinese are going away anytime soon. Lexmoto, WK and AJS are serious players and probably in touch with the Chinese to meet new regulations. At this time of year it's not unusual for dealers to be unloading current stock. The Big 4 and most MIC members are doing it here. I'm sure a nation that has a Space Program can meet emission regulations. I see a bright future for the Chinese. They are listening to distributors and building better bikes and scooters all the time.
Besides, how hard would it be for any Chinese company to snatch up a compliant machine and reverse engineer the equipment. They didn't invent PAIR, but it's on everything they produce. The Chinese have also been selling electric scooters for years. Given their skills making electronics for everyone building electric scooters might be their next big takeover. Vespa has just introduced an electric scooter project. You have to wonder how much Chinese components lie in that one.
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Post by w650 on Nov 23, 2016 16:38:37 GMT -5
I just saw this. It would seem to bolster my premise. powersportsbusiness.com/top-stories/2016/11/23/american-lifan-launches-king-power-series/ Lifan’s biggest challenge is setting up dealers fast enough to keep up with the projected demand. With United States sales of motorcycles on the rise, and the demand for small displacement bikes higher than ever, Lifan appears to be entering the market with perfect timing.
Manufacturers have taken notice that the American buyer of motorcycles has changed in recent years and the small displacement market segment has seen significant growth. While other manufacturers are racing to make smaller bikes to fill gaps in their product line, Lifan has been producing millions of motorcycles at and below 250cc for years.
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Post by spandi on Nov 24, 2016 9:10:22 GMT -5
No real surprise about this, I've been watching China's slow climb up the ladder for some time. They are simply following the already well trod path first cut by the Japanese. And I think the eventual outcome will be the same, with China dominatining the market and doing to Japan what Japan did to the US, British, and European motorcycle markets... namely eating their lunch.
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Post by spandi on Nov 24, 2016 9:21:14 GMT -5
I can only tell you I'm on an SSR 250 scooter, but their reputation has always been better than the run-of-the-mill importers. If memory serves they are even sponsoring SSR racing teams.(BTW, I concur with Leo, thanks for sharing their latest product lineup.) BTW, keep in mind that another reason Chinese manufacturers are upping their game is competition (and up to now better quality) from India.
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Post by rockynv on Nov 24, 2016 10:32:22 GMT -5
Lifan was a Yamaha partner for years and a major player so they have the reserves to keep up along with the methodology they were trained in by their association with Yamaha. There is a big difference between dumping old E3 bikes to get rid of them and becoming E4 and then quickly E5 compliant.
Things are changing rapidly and what is being unveiling at trade shows can already be obsolete as Mehindra Motors found out in India. Many of the new tech engines that they unveiled for 2016/2017 can't be sold or used in major cities in India even though they met the national air quality standards. They have set up a design center in Michigan to see if they can cut their losses on those investments before things tighten up here. We may see the US Postal Service driving a Mehindra in the not so distant future.
Watch out for "While inventory lasts" sales as those will likely be dumping of bikes that may shortly no longer be salable in Europe and the US. If the US starts restrictions of non-compliant vehicles in major cities like they have started in parts of Asia and Europe one could be stuck with a bike that can only be ridden outside the city limits.
In other parts of the world they have mobile environmental units that check tail pipe emissions and pull vehicles that fail off the road and it would not be a big stretch with the global environmental conferences to see similar here due to pressure from other countries that the US needs to better practice what the preach. In Florida is was determined that tail pipe emissions checks were a waste of time so we have not had them for about 20 years now but they could come back in the major cities.
We will probably see the Chinese makers that have been mentored by the European and Japanese come out ahead in the long run however the economic shift in China especially after having come under greater global scrutiny of work place conditions since the Olympics were held there has increased their costs to manufacture as competitively as before. We can see this pretty clearly when the actual street price of such as an Aprilia 750cc bike is only $200 more than a barely comparative 400/500cc Chinese bike.
Yes China is suffering very severe air quality issues and has some substantial payouts to make in order to clear it up. They need viable Zero Emissions Vehicles internally and exporting the dirty ones is no longer going to work especially as a number of European and other countries have already signed into law a 20 year phase out of internal combustion engines in their major cities and some for the entire country.
The Japanese have already learned that an electric vehicle with a sub 100 mile range does not sell well in the USA where range anxiety is a very big factor. Nissan just had to increase their Leaf from a 24 to 30 kWh battery to increase range to over 100 miles and Chevy is poised to release their 60 kWh Bolt ZEV(looks too much like a Pontiac Aztec to me) to get to about 150 miles. Toyota has just enhanced their battery technology to better monitor usage and cell condition extending driving range by 15% due to the better monitoring and controls in their plug in hybrids. Tesla is the Range King however they are doing so using battery technology that can be explosive and requires liquid cooling to keep it safe while the others are adopting battery tech that can be air cooled and has a better margin of safety.
Heat is death to the batteries in electric vehicles which Nissan learned the hard way. They had to redesign their battery cells due to a high rate of failure when used in the Deep South and now have what they have designated the Lizard Battery which they hope will meet a 10 year/100,000 mile life span. Battery design and manufacturing along with vehicle manufacturing of their plug in electric vehicle has been moved to Tennessee in order for them deal with the changes needed for the broad climate range found in the US and have the freshest batteries available at the time a vehicle is put through final assembly to be sent to a dealership along with mitigate the costs of getting the heavy batteries to the US.
The Chinese at this moment have to live down the scrutiny that they are under for their knockoff batteries especially those used in hover boards that have burst into flames and burnt people out of their homes. Chinese batteries keep coming into the news for computer and cell phone fires too. I almost had a fire in my garage due to Chinese batteries in a cordless drill but I caught it just as it burst into flames however if my back was turned or if I had gone into the house for a break it could have been devastating.
It is going to be interesting and it may get difficult to keep up with the pace of the changes. It will be driven by more than just consumer preferences today as whats allowed to be on the menu tomorrow may change drastically due to Climate Change Issues.
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Post by w650 on Nov 30, 2016 8:31:57 GMT -5
I just found this article today. It would appear that the Italian name will prosper under Chinese ownership. I would love to see one of these in the flesh. www.ssrmotorsports.com/news/2016/11/16/benelli-tnt300-review-from-motorcycle-com/if it said Italy you could just as easily believe it: Check the nice welds on that red trellis frame, respect the braided steel lines leading to the dual front discs which are clamped by calipers that look like Brembos. Behold an instrument panel and switchgear that wouldn’t look at all out of place on any Japanese motorcycle. The stylish pointy footpegs look like something from an MV Agusta, and both shift and brake lever tips are eccentric-mounted adjustable. Eyeballing it, this is the nicest Chinese bike we’ve seen – by a long shot. Heck, it even has a cute little switchblade-style ignition key.
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Post by fugaziiv on Nov 30, 2016 10:13:13 GMT -5
I picked up a used Nissan Leaf electric Car a few months ago... I have a feeling that we'll be seeing more and more of this as Americans in general get over their range anxiety. All we need to do is take a hard look at the amount of travel we really do in an average day and all of a sudden a 100 mile or less range becomes a very palatable limit for most of what we do. Well, at least those of us that are reletivly urban. Rurally located folks may still need a bit more than that. Matt
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Post by cyborg55 on Dec 1, 2016 9:29:18 GMT -5
I think there's big problems looming in the future with the disposal of the batteries ,,,, why anyone would follow a european model escapes me,,,they are failing at a miserable rate,,,way worse than we are in the states,,,anyways unless they can sort out the long term issues with these battery problems they won't be a real viable alternative ,,,urbanites will soon embrace electric vehicles ,,,but suburban and rural dwellers will be a very hard sell,,,there's also the crash factor and double also the long term health effects of being exposed to the free radical ions and emissions from these batteries,,,(think early Tessa's and the Samsung phones as of late and the hoverboard disaster). I don't mean to rain on the parade one bit but I think the rush to eliminate liquid fuel vehicles is pure folly ,,,bmw has had a 200+ hydrogen fuel fleet in service for over a decade with very low emissions ,but the oil business's stranglehold on distribution of hydrogen made it all but just a long term test,,,I could go on forever but I wont
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Post by w650 on Dec 1, 2016 10:13:29 GMT -5
The second issue with electric vehicles is this in my opinion. The electricity it takes to charge them doesn't just come from the air. If everyone had them the infrastructure to supply power would have to beefed up by a phenomenal rate. Solar and wind are being utilized more but it isn't going to supply the Country. Fossil fuels and natural gas will still be doing the bulk of the work. I can see hybrids for a long time substituting but all electric vehicles won't be taking over in my lifetime. But having said that look who comes up with a search. Guess where these come from? www.electropedal.com/collections/electric-mopeds
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Post by tortoise on Dec 1, 2016 11:58:30 GMT -5
There is a significant cost "premium" with electrics . . . Gas Trans-It 50 - $870 (shipped) Electric ZEV 2700L - $2945 (plus dealer fees?)
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