|
|
Post by skuttadawg on Apr 5, 2013 21:06:20 GMT -5
Alleyoop your arrogance is outstanding and your ignorance is not amusing . I can pop a wheelie when it hits 9,000 RPMs and NEVER said it would do 150 MPH
A 2T coasts . Sliders perform better . Try a set and see yourself . Watch this video and pay attention to the belts
|
|
Freshman Rider
Currently Offline
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Joined: Mar 1, 2013 15:37:33 GMT -5
|
Post by waterboysh on Apr 5, 2013 21:19:45 GMT -5
My Echarm I almost do not need to use the brakes it decels so much My 150 behaves the same way. In fact, I was considering posting here and asking if "excessive" engine braking would harm the engine in any way. I typically only have to brake for sudden stops or to stop completely after engine braking for most of my decel. Also, does engine temperature effect engine braking? It might just be my imagination, but it seems to on my scooter. When it's colder, the braking effect seems much larger than when it's hot. |
|
|
|
Post by skuttadawg on Apr 5, 2013 21:25:13 GMT -5
No harm its also the compression in the engine that helps slow it down when you let up off of the throttle
|
|
|
|
Post by alleyoop on Apr 5, 2013 21:53:16 GMT -5
Ignorance is bless stupidity is not. What is that Video supposed to proof may I ask  . If your trying to show that once the clutch pads disengage the bell the wheel keeps on spinning that happens on any scooter 2ts, 4ts even a car will keep on trucking if you let off the gas everyone knows that. You just don't know how things work that is all no shame in not knowing. I see you now are changing from tranny to saying the compression in the engine helps slow it down, NOW your picking up on things that is good to hear. Alleyoop |
|
|
|
Post by prodigit on Apr 5, 2013 23:17:00 GMT -5
My Echarm I almost do not need to use the brakes it decels so much My 150 behaves the same way. In fact, I was considering posting here and asking if "excessive" engine braking would harm the engine in any way. I typically only have to brake for sudden stops or to stop completely after engine braking for most of my decel. Also, does engine temperature effect engine braking? It might just be my imagination, but it seems to on my scooter. When it's colder, the braking effect seems much larger than when it's hot. Temperature can sometimes affect oil viscosity. On a cold engine, engine braking will work better. Engine braking causes more vacuum in the cylinders than usual, thus some people say it's good for the cylinder, as some oil will be sucked through the cracks of the piston rings and the cylinder walls. I don't know how much of it is true, but engine braking won't harm the motor. If anything, it'll save you brakepads. With a carburetor engine you'll still use tiny bits of fuel, as where a fuel injected engine may cut fuel flow completely during engine braking. I know on some cars there's a system that opens the valves at engine braking to make the engine coast; while with normal engines (like scooters), valves operate in a fixed pattern; causing a sub pressure (vacuum) in the cylinder. That vacuum is what's causing the engine braking. So in some sense Skuttadawg is right in saying that 2 stroke engines don't engine brake as hard as 4 strokes, as they don't have that extra stroke that creates the vacuum. (actually the stroke where the fuel and air is pushed into the cylinder, but due to a closed throttle, there's not a lot of air that enters the cylinder). On the other hand, engine braking also depends on the CVT. So there are at least 2 possible causes of engine braking differences. However, at this time, I'm mainly interested in the CVT part, as it has to do with the rollers or sliders used, and how they affect engine braking. |
|
|
|
Post by skuttadawg on Apr 5, 2013 23:20:56 GMT -5
Been drinking All of my 49ccs where 2T , mostly mopeds like a Honda Urban Express and several pedal types that where chain driven rather than CVT and I had a Honda Elite and a Spree that were 2T as well . All would coast for a long way . My Spree could go the furthest . When I first bought a TaoTao ATMa50 one of the first things I noticed was tranny drag when I let off of the throttle . On a 2T if I coast to where it gets into " neutral " and gave it throttle it sped up where my ATM would hesitate witch a braking effect for a split second then speed up . My Echarm has almost 15,000 miles with the factory brake pads on front as I changed the rear ones when I bought a new belt even though they were still good , I prefer to change out worn parts before they are toast . I had a cop follow me for several miles and I never touched the brakes until I came upon a traffic light . He pulled up beside and said he was about to blue light me as he thought my brake light was out until he saw me apply the brakes . I have ridden several ATVS with only a 50cc 4T and 90cc 2T had a CVT and the rest had manual shift with some a manual clutch as most have a semi clutch . Well I lived in Wyoming on ranch and had a Polaris 500cc , a 600cc v twin and a Ranger all with a CVT that had forward and reverse as well as high and low transfer case with push button 4x4 to engage the front wheels . I was surprised at how fast the ATVS were and how well they braked me when I was going down steep hills . The Ranger was not as fast since its heavier and has a dump bed . I used to think a CVT was weak compared to a manual wet clutch which can deliver more power to the wheels , but a CVT does a good job of having the effects of having gears with the belt expanding . Watch the video but pay close attention to the belts as you will see how much more the 4T it changes it shape . Compression is a factor along with tranny drag . I had some pedal mopeds and a Honda XR 350 4T with compression release valve and it would stop better than the brakes would . Diesels like in semis often have a Jake brake to help slow them down and save on brake wear . A buddy had a Banks Jake brake and other goodies , he would hit the Jake brake just to see people looking around to see what the noise was . Again " Do you have a 2T scooter ?" This may help you www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Motor-Scooters/dp/1592576397Prodigit try some sliders after you weigh your rollers and you may opt to get 2 sets in order to test or mix up like 3 5s and 3 6s to equal 5.5 grams Caradad interesting on DR P variator wear as my glides were worn but the ramps looked ok . I will inspect at the 15,000 mile service coming up . Is the Koso variator softer than a DR P variator ? |
|
|
|
Post by JR on Apr 5, 2013 23:35:21 GMT -5
OK, there is no need for issuing challenges like this. Keep it friendly.
|
|
|
|
Post by skuttadawg on Apr 6, 2013 0:00:11 GMT -5
Sorry I try to stay on topic and keep it G rated but hate to be heckled when I know I am right . I am not a guru like 90GTvert but I am far from being a noob or doofus
|
|
|
|
Post by JR on Apr 6, 2013 0:26:09 GMT -5
Brent is a 2 T god, to call him a guru is to insult him.
|
|
|
|
Post by justbuggin2 on Apr 6, 2013 2:05:23 GMT -5
i thinking you are comparing apples to oranges here I'm pretty sure that the engine braking has very little to do with the engine, as both my engines are 4t and one does engine brake quite hard, while the other (though 3x bigger displacement), does not even come near to the engine braking capability of the other bike. Read more: itistheride.boards.net/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=976#ixzz2PfEeznLhas you stated that one is 3times the size of the other one bike can be heavier than the other and that will effect the engine braking as well def weights of sliders or rollers and def spring rates of the torque spring and the clutch springs |
|
|
|
Post by prodigit on Apr 6, 2013 2:39:21 GMT -5
well, if anything, I'd expect a larger engine to engine brake more, but that's not true in my case.
The 50cc engine brakes a lot harder than the 150, and from looking at the revs, it's because of the CVT! I haven't looked to see with what the EVO is equipped, but the way it performs, comes much closer to the way people on this forum describe how sliders perform. So I presume that the EVO150 has sliders, while the ATM50 has rollers.
And that rollers (when not too heavy), contribute to higher engine braking, than sliders.
|
|
Freshman Rider
Currently Offline
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Joined: Feb 28, 2013 12:04:02 GMT -5
|
Post by xylon on Apr 6, 2013 2:52:09 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by JR on Apr 6, 2013 7:46:54 GMT -5
Let's try to stay on subject to the OP's question. Since this is a general type question then giving the results of what your scooter does can add to the knowledge base of this inquiry and it doesn't matter what you ride.
Now I'll add my thoughts on the matter. As in all things with these machines lots of factors play into what one scooter does versus another. Carasdad mentioned one of the most important factors IMO. Depends on how you have your CVT set up? A variator with heavier weighted slider/rollers is going to respond differently than one with lighter weights and the clutch set up will add to the effect.
Rider weight, conditions, tire pressure all contributing factors as well. Even the rate that you decal will be a factor. I use 12g sliders on my 250B and ride in the hills a lot and when I am going down a big hill if I let off of the gas all the way I get a fairly good engine deceleration with the engine giving me some braking power. But when I was with the OEM 14g rollers the engine braking going down a big hill was very minimal. So needless to say by going to 12g sliders I gained two pleasant things while riding in the Ozarks, better pull up the hills and better deceleration going down.
JR
|
|
|
|
Post by carasdad on Apr 6, 2013 9:52:07 GMT -5
@ skuttadawg...the KOSO's are in between the cheap green ones and Ninja ones they sell on Ebay...a bit harder but not as rock hard as the Dr Pulleys. I will dig up some pics of the CVT wear from the KOSO's(none) and the Dr Pulleys(nice trenches in the CVT) But maybe both the performance CVT's I bought were just super soft aluminum?? @ Everybody else....as to why my 2T just coasts on decel and all our 4T's 'Jake Brake'..decel quickly when you let off the throttle is beyond me. Have tried to think of everything even run them all with the cover off to watch. Yet on the 2T it is just like my car when I push in the clutch...the only thing that slows it is wind drag and the unavoidable inherent friction. The 4T Sunny's as soon as you let off throttle they decel..and in fact you can really feel it..it is as if you are applying slight brake lever. prodigit...try the KOSO's...trust me you will be impressed. MY take off is as ryan52 my neighbor on here says in his words.."Dude take off on this thing is mad crazy..0-35 in about 50-75 feet!.....then a couple hundred more feet and I was at 52-53" Which is exactly what I find with the KOSO's ....rocket like take off...1 second or so pause at 35 as it 'shifts' so to speak...then up to 55 quite abruptly after that. NOTE TO EVERYONE that buy or already have KOSO sliders. MO at scrappys is wrong and all 3 vids on youtube are WRONG in the way they are installed!!!  The words KOSO on them go up...vice against the center of the CVT. Try them both ways and you will see I am right. ;D KOSO offers no instructions with any product they sell and they are hard to reach. But 9 emails later they finally told me.."KOSO goes up when installed"  Furthermore...as most know all brands of sliders come 1 gram lighter than marked...so ya gotta play a guessing game. Of the 7 sets I have installed....1 for me and 6 for customers...they weigh EXACTLY as marked. @ prodigit..if I was a wealthy man I would buy and send you a set...you'd never go back to anything else..no sir... |
|
..BAD TO THE BONE..
The words KOSO on them go up...vice against the center of the CVT. Try them both ways and you will see I am right. ;D KOSO offers no instructions with any product they sell and they are hard to reach. But 9 emails later they finally told me.."KOSO goes up when installed"