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Post by geh3333 on Feb 15, 2016 20:38:10 GMT -5
See this pic :  We need a pic like this , but a little more from the side , so we can see the outside of the piece sticking out from the gear. |
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Post by geh3333 on Feb 15, 2016 20:43:25 GMT -5
Another thing bothering me a little , is that the sprags in your pick , especially the one on top are all pushed back into the starter clutch. Many times when you remove the gear , they are pushed out making it hard to get the gear back in . its a little unusually that they are not being pushed out " by the spring" especially the one on top. Every time I ever pulled the gear out , I had to push the sprags back in to get the gear in. Im not saying its not possible for the sprags to stay in after the gear removal but its something that is bothering me.
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Post by geh3333 on Feb 15, 2016 20:55:32 GMT -5
One other possible issue may be the oil pump chain . it wraps around the crankshaft behind the starter clutch. There are teeth that the chain should run over . there is a possibility that the chain slipped off the teeth " which may be the noise you heard " . if the chain slipped off the teeth , it may be jamming up between the teeth and the engine case , which would cause the starter to not be able to turn the engine over. Just a possibility. U would have to remove the starter clutch to inspect it. Or use a mirror , but it is a little hard to see.
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Post by rcq92130 on Feb 15, 2016 22:03:23 GMT -5
OK, George, I'm just going to go ahead and say it .....
If you look again at the video Mark posted (and listen to it) ....
It seems the engine is BINDING, not that the clutch is slipping. If it was slipping, the engine would reach to point of high compression and then the starter motor would continue to spin - engine not turning - and there would be a LOUD whining as the sprags scraped along the collar of the gear.
That's not what we see or hear.
instead, we see the engine turn, then it all comes to a halt - no noise from the starter motor or anything. It just seems to bind up.
Just seems to me it's binding, not slipping (or, in some way we do not understand, still an electrical problem so there just isn't enough torque).
There. I said it.
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Post by geh3333 on Feb 15, 2016 22:55:42 GMT -5
OK, George, I'm just going to go ahead and say it ..... If you look again at the video Mark posted (and listen to it) .... It seems the engine is BINDING, not that the clutch is slipping. If it was slipping, the engine would reach to point of high compression and then the starter motor would continue to spin - engine not turning - and there would be a LOUD whining as the sprags scraped along the collar of the gear. That's not what we see or hear. instead, we see the engine turn, then it all comes to a halt - no noise from the starter motor or anything. It just seems to bind up. Just seems to me it's binding, not slipping (or, in some way we do not understand, still an electrical problem so there just isn't enough torque). There. I said it. I thought of that also , but his engine is barely turning over, not sure if its even a full turn . I was thinking maybe only two sprags are catching , then a quick slip and finally locking up. If you get a quick slip your going to lose a bunch of energy then when it catches , the energy left is not enough to turn the engine over. In this case there may not be much noise , if any . |
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Post by geh3333 on Feb 15, 2016 23:00:01 GMT -5
With mine , the noise would only pop up after ignition , when it was running. I did have a noise when starting the engine with the ncy starter clutch , however it was broken beyond belief. And it was still turning over sometimes . but in his case it seems like its a quick semi turn and the engine locks. Not sure. I'd like to see close up picks of the big chunk or flake of metal in the oil .
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Post by geh3333 on Feb 17, 2016 23:36:48 GMT -5
At this point I still believe we are on the right track . it cannot be a power issue , if I'm not mistaken , he jumped the starter with a car battery so that eliminates the power issue. The metal flakes in the oil is troublesome . yes metal flakes or pieces are expected with a new top end , but I forgot , the scoot hasn't even started yet for any metal to have transfered into the oil. The metal had to be left over from before the top end install. Did you get anything into the crank case while doing the swap ? Or is the metal left over from before. The prices or flakes are too big to be normal. So what did the metal come from ? That's why I'd love to see another angle of the starter gear. I never would have suspected my starter clutch was bad when I looked at it . I was lucky one of the sprags flipped out of place when I removed the starter gear. Its impossible for them to flip with the gear in place. If it had not flipped , the starter clutch would have looked just like yours " normal" . its 100% possible the issue can be deeper into the starter clutch and we cannot see what it is. At this point I would spend the few bucks and buy a new one . they come with the new starter gear also. If this does not fix the issue , I'd expect the prob to be deeper into the crank case. When you remove the starter clutch , you can inspect the Oil pump chain also. This is the thing : something seems to be jamming up . what is it ? A big issue is that we cannot get it started . if we were able to , there is a good chance that we would hear some sort of noise from the engine. Even the noise mine was making wasn't noticeable while I was riding , due to my exhaust was way louder then the noise. Also the noise came and went as it chose to. Even at idle it was not a really loud noise. It was noticeable to me but if someone who didn't know my scoot listen to it , they would not have second guessed it , unless it came and went with them listening to it. You may not have even noticed the noise when u where riding it .
At this point I would replace the starter clutch , then if that does not work , your prob looking into a complete tear down . I have complete faith that you have the timing and the valves set correct. I do have a question . when it came to the chain tensioner, when you removed it did you just put it back in or did you loosen it and let it adjust on its own. There is a chance that when you removed it , the tensioner may have opened further, and if you just stuck it back in , it may be too tight causing to much tension on the chain .
You didn't tighten the chain tensioner did you ?
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Post by murkyapricot on Feb 18, 2016 11:21:26 GMT -5
I readjusted the tensioner when i put it back on, the result was no change from before changing top end
The metal pieces are some what rounded like they were part of something large and circular
If i run my finger along the bottom i get a thin layer of dark oil that is a good portion metal "dust"
Very metalic black oil
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Post by geh3333 on Feb 18, 2016 19:56:43 GMT -5
I readjusted the tensioner when i put it back on, the result was no change from before changing top end The metal pieces are some what rounded like they were part of something large and circular If i run my finger along the bottom i get a thin layer of dark oil that is a good portion metal "dust" Very metalic black oil The inner part of the starter clutch gear is rounded and the metal is dark. The piece that sticks out and goes into the starter clutch. |
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Post by geh3333 on Feb 18, 2016 19:59:57 GMT -5
Hey murky , do you know what part of the gear I'm talking about ? I would still love to see a pick of it .
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Post by geh3333 on Feb 18, 2016 20:11:35 GMT -5
Another thing you can do is to see if the metal flakes stick to a magnet. This will narrow down where the metal is coming from . also if its a darker metal , that will also narrow it down. Usually the gears have the darker tint to the metal and they also stick to a magnet. If it were a bearing issue , I'd expect the metal to " not " be dark , but a shiny metal . same with the cylinder piston and rings.
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Post by murkyapricot on Feb 19, 2016 19:30:16 GMT -5
Hey murky , do you know what part of the gear I'm talking about ? I would still love to see a pick of it . Do you mean the sort of sleeve piece that comes out of the center? |
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Post by geh3333 on Feb 19, 2016 19:33:54 GMT -5
Hey murky , do you know what part of the gear I'm talking about ? I would still love to see a pick of it . Do you mean the sort of sleeve piece that comes out of the center? Yeah , on the back of he starter gear , the piece the sticks out and goes into the starter clutch. Yeah, sorta like a sleeve. |
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Post by geh3333 on Feb 19, 2016 19:35:23 GMT -5
The outside of that sleeve is where the sprags make contact and grab . if the gear was slipping , that's where the damage would be.
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Post by murkyapricot on Feb 20, 2016 21:00:28 GMT -5
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