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Post by pistonguy on Dec 21, 2015 18:36:46 GMT -5
I think my main concerns with running the engine at that rpm 8500-10000 rpm at any length of time , considering you would be running all out constantly , would be : I have yet to hear of anyone doing it and posting any results like oil temps or how long the engine lasted compared to someone running no higher then 8000 rpms. And also I can get the same speeds at 8k then one could at 10k so why do it ? I would just have some pretty justified concerns. I would never do it unless I had a donor engine to run it at those rpms for extended periods , or if I had the extra cash to test it out . True tis, I haven't seen a posting or in a search. Your concerns are More than justified without looking into the below. What Does Surprise me is am I the Only or First One who Notices the Valve Spring Windings going in the same Direction? Ive only been around these a couple years and it JUMPED out at me. All these Cranks out of the Box, No Warranty No Return and you Don't put it on a Truing Stand? Know body Spining the Rotating assy, True, Weld Crank? it don't cost that much. Throw some Rotating or Reciprocating parts on the Scale. Source a Tapper Wall Wrist-pin vs the Heavier Straight Wall. Just the lighter Weight Piston assy alone??     Tis is just a little bit of home work, Measure Everything and good Choices. Ta heck with 10K how about a 7,400 rpm Bullet Proof GY-6? |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 22, 2015 14:52:47 GMT -5
P-Guy Never knew about counter-wound springs before and thank you for that gem. Here are a few pix I thought you would enjoy - the first actually relevant to what you were saying (yeah, I know - every once in a while I say something relevant by mistake). springs:  Cute stuff!:  Pretty stuff:  |
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Post by cyborg on Dec 22, 2015 16:06:21 GMT -5
who's talking running flat out ten thou plus all the time?,, all i've said all along is this mill is definantely a huge step up from the junk pile fodder chinese engine,,and it can be run safely to 10,000 ,,,the redline on this engine is higher and way safer than an unbalanced chinese mill with lesser grade materials and machining processes,,,and the price reflects this,,,(just speculating here) the engine probably costs more than a low grade scooter,,,anyways if it was run flat out all the time there would be an accident and you probably could wallpaper a bathroom with all the tickets,,,till they threw your in jail that is
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 25, 2015 17:03:25 GMT -5
who's talking running flat out ten thou plus all the time?,, all i've said all along is this mill is definantely a huge step up from the junk pile fodder chinese engine,,and it can be run safely to 10,000 ,,,the redline on this engine is higher and way safer than an unbalanced chinese mill with lesser grade materials and machining processes,,,and the price reflects this,,,(just speculating here) the engine probably costs more than a low grade scooter,,,anyways if it was run flat out all the time there would be an accident and you probably could wallpaper a bathroom with all the tickets,,,till they threw your in jail that is But what about the old Honda engines that redline at 8,000 pm ? They are not Chinese junk either , but were the first to build and test these Engines . they came up with the redline , not the Chinese junk. That's why the Chinese junk seems to self destruct at even less rpms, because they took the original Honda redline and used it with their clones. This is the thing, I replaced everything but the crank on my Chinese engine with mostly ncy parts . I'm sure I could have ran the rpms up to 10k for a quick hit here and there , but I would never of done it since I'm not into overheating my scoot . I was basing this discussion on the assumption that it would be safe and good for the engine if it was ran between 8500-10000 rpm for a length of time . even running at 9-10k for a mile or 2 straight would be " in my opinion " asking for problems. I think the main point I'm trying to make is : if Honda redlined the engine at 8k then taida can't be made that much better then Honda, and yes I agree that a short burst up to 10k may not cause the engine to grenade , but any length running it at at those rpms would be called " experimenting" since I've never really heard of anyone running one of these scoots at those rpms . I guess we can all speculate what would or would not happen , but when it comes down too it we will not know until someone tests this theory. And it must be tested for the whole life of the engine , running at those rpms to see if the engine only lasts so many miles. If someone builds me a full taida engine , I'll test it out ! |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 25, 2015 17:18:49 GMT -5
who's talking running flat out ten thou plus all the time?,, all i've said all along is this mill is definantely a huge step up from the junk pile fodder chinese engine,,and it can be run safely to 10,000 ,,,the redline on this engine is higher and way safer than an unbalanced chinese mill with lesser grade materials and machining processes,,,and the price reflects this,,,(just speculating here) the engine probably costs more than a low grade scooter,,,anyways if it was run flat out all the time there would be an accident and you probably could wallpaper a bathroom with all the tickets,,,till they threw your in jail that is But what about the old Honda engines that redline at 8,000 pm ? They are not Chinese junk either , but were the first to build and test these Engines . they came up with the redline , not the Chinese junk. That's why the Chinese junk seems to self destruct at even less rpms, because they took the original Honda redline and used it with their clones. This is the thing, I replaced everything but the crank on my Chinese engine with mostly ncy parts . I'm sure I could have ran the rpms up to 10k for a quick hit here and there , but I would never of done it since I'm not into overheating my scoot . I was basing this discussion on the assumption that it would be safe and good for the engine if it was ran between 8500-10000 rpm for a length of time . even running at 9-10k for a mile or 2 straight would be " in my opinion " asking for problems. I think the main point I'm trying to make is : if Honda redlined the engine at 8k then taida can't be made that much better then Honda, and yes I agree that a short burst up to 10k may not cause the engine to grenade , but any length running it at at those rpms would be called " experimenting" since I've never really heard of anyone running one of these scoots at those rpms . I guess we can all speculate what would or would not happen , but when it comes down too it we will not know until someone tests this theory. And it must be tested for the whole life of the engine , running at those rpms to see if the engine only lasts so many miles. If someone builds me a full taida engine , I'll test it out ! Sorry - I will NOT be 'experimenting' with my Taida this way. Yeah - it might hold up just fine. Or it might not. I don't care to find out - it was just too expensive, and anyway, I like the thing too darned much to see how far I can push it before it "grenades" (nice word, George). Merry Christmas to all of you !!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh - and don't forget - the reason for Christmas isn't our scooters, nor the presents ... but the gift we received from God! |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 25, 2015 17:28:49 GMT -5
P-Guy always comes up with the most interesting and informative comments around! Here is the difference, PG: you build for race, and tear your engines down after every run. I'm looking for a balance that will let me avoid a tear down until Obama finally leaves office - whatever century that is. My family driver car is a big body BMW. Probably will do 140 or so if I wanted; never tried on that car. But at highway speeds (75 to 80) it cruises along at 2,000 to 2,500 RPM. SWEET! I'd love to get SuperEngine configured so I could still reach a reasonable top speed on those rare occasions I wanted or needed to, but under normal conditions cruises along at 55 or 60 at about 6,500 RPM. I might WOT the thing at takeoff - just because I hate being passed - but normally just want to cruise along with the flow on this rickety Retro thing. We'll yes and no on my builds I come across wrong on My GY-6. I want to ride, Not work on a 10hr Grenade. well, every 10 hrs. I mentioned my sweet spot is 6,400-7,200 rpm If we pick a off the shelf cam they make the Bulk of there Snots from 6,500-8,500 rpm, Maybe. I'm in the Meat of hp and torque for Maybe 2,000rpm. So were Do I want that 2,000rpm Power Band to be for My Riding? 8-10K rpm, 6-8K rpm? Paying closer attention to some detail will Mostly provide Longevity and Durability. Spin the Rotating Assy. True and Weld Crank. Lighten if ya want, for single crankshaft it isn't that much $$ to do this. can go further in Straightening out the Rod Angle for the Strokers. Sort out some Proper Valve Springs. So now I make the meat of power from 6,500-8,500, ok with the Mods mentioned above I have assurance that I could run 8,500-9 grand all afternoon, park it and do it again tomorrow. Im not interested in doing that, probably never will, but could if I wanted to without a concern. Would you feel call comfortable running it between 9-10k for 10 miles straight ? I think we all have the same concerns about high rpms because we have no real data on if the engine will hold up and how long it will last running a scoot tuned to hit that high of an rpm. That's not the only issue . if a scoot is tuned to hit 10k , then even takeoffs will be in the 9k range or higher . so the scoot will have a normal running rpm between 6-10k rpms ! Just to hit 40 mph you will be in the 7-8k range . the weights needed to hit those rpms would be around 6-8 grams depending on the cc's of he engine . at 20mph you would be around 5-6k rpms! Its starting to sound ridiculous to even try it , lol. Maybe if you had a 232cc engine , then you can use heavier weights to reach the 10k range . maybe 10 grams , that way you can be around 40 mph at a lower rpms and so on. We have to remember that these variators need a certain weight to be able to push the belt up the face. They were designed to run between a specific rpm . so if we tune the CVT to hit the 10k range. , we would look pretty funny screaming down the road at 20mph rpms sounding like a crouch rocket , lol. |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 25, 2015 17:40:24 GMT -5
But what about the old Honda engines that redline at 8,000 pm ? They are not Chinese junk either , but were the first to build and test these Engines . they came up with the redline , not the Chinese junk. That's why the Chinese junk seems to self destruct at even less rpms, because they took the original Honda redline and used it with their clones. This is the thing, I replaced everything but the crank on my Chinese engine with mostly ncy parts . I'm sure I could have ran the rpms up to 10k for a quick hit here and there , but I would never of done it since I'm not into overheating my scoot . I was basing this discussion on the assumption that it would be safe and good for the engine if it was ran between 8500-10000 rpm for a length of time . even running at 9-10k for a mile or 2 straight would be " in my opinion " asking for problems. I think the main point I'm trying to make is : if Honda redlined the engine at 8k then taida can't be made that much better then Honda, and yes I agree that a short burst up to 10k may not cause the engine to grenade , but any length running it at at those rpms would be called " experimenting" since I've never really heard of anyone running one of these scoots at those rpms . I guess we can all speculate what would or would not happen , but when it comes down too it we will not know until someone tests this theory. And it must be tested for the whole life of the engine , running at those rpms to see if the engine only lasts so many miles. If someone builds me a full taida engine , I'll test it out ! Sorry - I will NOT be 'experimenting' with my Taida this way. Yeah - it might hold up just fine. Or it might not. I don't care to find out - it was just too expensive, and anyway, I like the thing too darned much to see how far I can push it before it "grenades" (nice word, George). Merry Christmas to all of you !!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh - and don't forget - the reason for Christmas isn't our scooters, nor the presents ... but the gift we received from God! Oh cmon rcq , we need data !! Why don't you tune your CVT so u can run it at 10k from your place to my place .I bet you will not make it out of Cali , lol. Merry Christmas !! If I win the bet , you have to buy me a taida engine ! |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 25, 2015 17:41:58 GMT -5
Sorry - I will NOT be 'experimenting' with my Taida this way. Yeah - it might hold up just fine. Or it might not. I don't care to find out - it was just too expensive, and anyway, I like the thing too darned much to see how far I can push it before it "grenades" (nice word, George). Merry Christmas to all of you !!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh - and don't forget - the reason for Christmas isn't our scooters, nor the presents ... but the gift we received from God! Oh cmon rcq , we need data !! Why don't you tune your CVT so u can run it at 10k from your place to my place .I bet you will not make it out of Cali , lol. Merry Christmas !! If I win the bet , you have to buy me a taida engine ! Tuned and on my way !!!!!!!! See ya in a few days. edit: Darn. Got about 5 miles and the engine exploded. I guess 10K was too high. you win. |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 25, 2015 17:56:39 GMT -5
Oh cmon rcq , we need data !! Why don't you tune your CVT so u can run it at 10k from your place to my place .I bet you will not make it out of Cali , lol. Merry Christmas !! If I win the bet , you have to buy me a taida engine ! Tuned and on my way !!!!!!!! See ya in a few days. edit: Darn. Got about 5 miles and the engine exploded. I guess 10K was too high. you win. I knew it !! Actually I'd really like to know what the max is that they can take . I guess I'm just stuck on thinking that 9-10k is just too unforgivable with these engines , no matter what the brand name is. I'm sure that taida will last at least 2 times longer than the average China scoot engine but I just don't know is it can handle the higher rpms long enough to even consider those rpms . |
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 25, 2015 17:58:54 GMT -5
Tuned and on my way !!!!!!!! See ya in a few days. edit: Darn. Got about 5 miles and the engine exploded. I guess 10K was too high. you win. I knew it !! Actually I'd really like to know what the max is that they can take . I guess I'm just stuck on thinking that 9-10k is just too unforgivable with these engines , no matter what the brand name is. I'm sure that taida will last at least 2 times longer than the average China scoot engine but I just don't know is it can handle the higher rpms long enough to even consider those rpms . Yeah (sobbing). When I get a new GY6 for my exploded scooter I'll ride it to Penn. for your wedding and bring your Taida engine with me. But ........... not above 8K |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 25, 2015 18:08:16 GMT -5
I knew it !! Actually I'd really like to know what the max is that they can take . I guess I'm just stuck on thinking that 9-10k is just too unforgivable with these engines , no matter what the brand name is. I'm sure that taida will last at least 2 times longer than the average China scoot engine but I just don't know is it can handle the higher rpms long enough to even consider those rpms . Yeah (sobbing). When I get a new GY6 for my exploded scooter I'll ride it to Penn. for your wedding and bring your Taida engine with me. But ........... not above 8K Someone must have slapped a taida crank in the blue beast when I wasn't looking ! I'm surprised it has over 20k miles and still going ! What if " instead of bearings in the crank " they used magnets ! Opposing fields so instead of ball bearings , the crank spins freely , floating in the engine case ! |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 25, 2015 18:09:56 GMT -5
Actually the piston would probably not work properly due to the slight movement in the crank .
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Post by pistonguy on Dec 26, 2015 18:09:36 GMT -5
We'll yes and no on my builds I come across wrong on My GY-6. I want to ride, Not work on a 10hr Grenade. well, every 10 hrs. I mentioned my sweet spot is 6,400-7,200 rpm If we pick a off the shelf cam they make the Bulk of there Snots from 6,500-8,500 rpm, Maybe. I'm in the Meat of hp and torque for Maybe 2,000rpm. So were Do I want that 2,000rpm Power Band to be for My Riding? 8-10K rpm, 6-8K rpm? Paying closer attention to some detail will Mostly provide Longevity and Durability. Spin the Rotating Assy. True and Weld Crank. Lighten if ya want, for single crankshaft it isn't that much $$ to do this. can go further in Straightening out the Rod Angle for the Strokers. Sort out some Proper Valve Springs. So now I make the meat of power from 6,500-8,500, ok with the Mods mentioned above I have assurance that I could run 8,500-9 grand all afternoon, park it and do it again tomorrow. Im not interested in doing that, probably never will, but could if I wanted to without a concern. Would you feel call comfortable running it between 9-10k for 10 miles straight ? I think we all have the same concerns about high rpms because we have no real data on if the engine will hold up and how long it will last running a scoot tuned to hit that high of an rpm. That's not the only issue . if a scoot is tuned to hit 10k , then even takeoffs will be in the 9k range or higher . so the scoot will have a normal running rpm between 6-10k rpms ! Just to hit 40 mph you will be in the 7-8k range . the weights needed to hit those rpms would be around 6-8 grams depending on the cc's of he engine . at 20mph you would be around 5-6k rpms! Its starting to sound ridiculous to even try it , lol. Maybe if you had a 232cc engine , then you can use heavier weights to reach the 10k range . maybe 10 grams , that way you can be around 40 mph at a lower rpms and so on. We have to remember that these variators need a certain weight to be able to push the belt up the face. They were designed to run between a specific rpm . so if we tune the CVT to hit the 10k range. , we would look pretty funny screaming down the road at 20mph rpms sounding like a crouch rocket , lol. Yes, with the little more attention I mentioned. CVT logistics aside thats under 10 minutes at 70mph. Thats has Insurance Built in. I don't see anything that Shows me It couldn't and live to do it many more days. |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 28, 2015 16:00:50 GMT -5
Would you feel call comfortable running it between 9-10k for 10 miles straight ? I think we all have the same concerns about high rpms because we have no real data on if the engine will hold up and how long it will last running a scoot tuned to hit that high of an rpm. That's not the only issue . if a scoot is tuned to hit 10k , then even takeoffs will be in the 9k range or higher . so the scoot will have a normal running rpm between 6-10k rpms ! Just to hit 40 mph you will be in the 7-8k range . the weights needed to hit those rpms would be around 6-8 grams depending on the cc's of he engine . at 20mph you would be around 5-6k rpms! Its starting to sound ridiculous to even try it , lol. Maybe if you had a 232cc engine , then you can use heavier weights to reach the 10k range . maybe 10 grams , that way you can be around 40 mph at a lower rpms and so on. We have to remember that these variators need a certain weight to be able to push the belt up the face. They were designed to run between a specific rpm . so if we tune the CVT to hit the 10k range. , we would look pretty funny screaming down the road at 20mph rpms sounding like a crouch rocket , lol. Yes, with the little more attention I mentioned. CVT logistics aside thats under 10 minutes at 70mph. Thats has Insurance Built in. I don't see anything that Shows me It couldn't and live to do it many more days. You make a great point with the valve springs " both spun in the same direction " !! Very nice pick up . When it comes down to it , we need some true data when pertaining to high rpm running . in a crazy scenario like the following : We get only one vehicle for the rest of our lives , and its a scoot with a full built taida engine . but if something happens to it THATS IT !! We must now walk for the rest of our lives. No fixing it or buying a new one . not one of us would run this engine over 8k . actually we would prob keep it around 6-7k max , lol. It would take a good deal of testing what parts will last and what parts would fail if ran at 10k for extended periods. In my opinion taida is a very good brand , but is no better then Honda, and Honda " being the maker of the gy6 engine" ran these engines through many tests " I'm sure " and came up with the 8k redline. One of the main reasons the clone China engines break is because the engine case is not built as good , the bearings , crank , top end and whatnot are all cloned and not as strong as the true Honda built gy6. Some do last but many have issues. They use the same 8k rpm range with under quality made parts , so its not a surprise when problems occur. Many of the China scoots break down in the first 1500 miles. Bring a good brand equal to Honda into the mix " like taida" and u had a good quality made engine that can now hold up to the 8k redline . I'm sure that hands tested the gy6 engine up to and over 10k . I'd like to know why " other then heat " they came up with an 8k redline ? |
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Post by rcq92130 on Jan 1, 2016 16:10:23 GMT -5
Getting this thing dialed in. Running 12gr Dr. Pepper sliders with the ultra low ratio gear set and GEH's full-NCY clutch. If the engine is punched it will climb into the mid 7K range (~7,500 or so) .... but at 1/3 or so throttle it cruises along nicely at 55-60mph, the tach at 6,500 to 7K. For me, that is just about where i want things.
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